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when i first heard about the male loneliness epidemic i was like oh yeah close camaraderie and bonding between men is often discouraged in favor of competition or, if not discouraged, at least filtered through a lens of individualism that precludes deep connections. and then i learned what people meant by it (men arent getting laid) to which i say skill issue
to all the men out there not getting laid: try less hard to get laid and try more hard to be an enjoyable and relaxing presence
Going anywhere in public to socializing is expensive as hell, third places are dead, and the primary way people meet potential SOs is through apps whose purpose isn’t to make anyone happy but to extract maximum value from them.
There are people who are off the deep end, yes, but the answer isn’t to attack them like this. That’s never going to snap anyone out of it, and there really are huge societal problems that are resulting in people withdrawing, which is obviously bad for their mental health.
This is one of those “people hate every piece of capitalism, but refuse to connect the dots to see the picture” things.
Yes exactly.
I found a local private club where drinks are cheap and there’s tons of regular customers. Feels like what the Cheers bar seemed like on TV.
That sounds cool as fuck
It’s pretty great. Everyone is really chill and if you just want to find a comfy chair and read you can do that, too.
I can’t wait for football season, not because I particularly like football, but because I like watching football with everybody.
And a few drinks and a couple appetizers are like $60, tops.
Oh, and the bartenders know your favorite drink and will just start making it when you walk in.
And the stereo, quieter or louder than the ass end of a 727?
Loud enough to hear but quiet enough to talk to someone across the bar.
And it’s got one of those jukeboxes where you can pick the song and there’s not many people so you’ve got a good chance of hearing it.
And folks who aren’t there will pick a song to let their friends know they’re thinking about them.
third places are dead
I’ve heard this line quite a few times. But… as far as I can tell, camping is still absolutely a popular past time. Parks and beaches are still a thing. Gyms and bars and clubs are as crowded as ever.
This reads much more like a meme than reality.
There are people who are off the deep end, yes, but the answer isn’t to attack them like this.
There’s a lot of mass media that’s screaming at people about how women and men are natural enemies and the only path to intimacy is through sexual assault.
Absolutely attack this ideology. Drag your friends back from it if you can. Mock and deride the notion if you can’t. Don’t tolerate the intolerable.
there really are huge societal problems that are resulting in people withdrawing, which is obviously bad for their mental health
Absolutely. So throw a party. Invite people out to do things. Mix and mingle.
Mocking and deriding people is very effective at radicalizing them, please do not do that, it consistently makes the problem worse.
I get that they would deserve that behaviour if they are advocating sexual assault, but if you care about that person, or the cultural issues they’re succumbing to, or the rising sentiment that men have to be rapey to ever have success with women, please don’t do that, it’s detrimental to the cause.
Mocking and deriding people is very effective at radicalizing them
To your side, certainly. That’s how hazing works. Exploiting people’s insecurities by calling them cucks and betas while presenting a facade of success and popularity is the Andrew Tate Special.
Piercing that bubble and outing fanatics as weirdos is necessary if you want to break their grip. If you’re tolerating abhorrent behavior - or, God forbid, rewarding it - you’re reinforcing it.
The key point here, however, is that exploiting insecurities through insults is not the only thing that Andrew Tate does.
He simultaneously messages to young men that they are weak/poor/unhealthy/cucks/betas/etc, but also that they deserve more, that it’s not entirely their fault that they’re not getting rich/women/success/etc, and that if they do xyz, they’ll fix themselves. Solely insulting them isn’t what makes the messaging effective, it’s the putting down of their current position in life while simultaneously promising a solution through notions of them having things like sex or money “taken” from them.
It’s certainly okay to mock or insult ideologies that are harmful, and to do a bit of that to the people that promote them, but only doing that will only radicalize them away from you. Think about these 2 scenarios:
Scenario A: “You’re worthless, you’ll never be anything, you’re poor, a virgin, and will die alone”
Scenario B: “You’re worthless, you’re poor, a virgin, and you’ll never be anything unless you follow these x steps to become a better man”
Scenario B is what Andrew Tate uses on young men. Scenario A is pure harassment that doesn’t motivate anybody on its own, Scenario B motivates action.
If you just ridicule a friend that has negative beliefs and don’t present any alternative, they will stop being your friend. If you deride them for sharing a harmful belief, then explain the alternative and how it would make them better off, you’re more likely to get them to actually change. (though this is, of course, not universal, and I’m sure a small subset of people could be motivated to change purely off insults and nothing more)
I hope I explained that well, I’m quite prone to rambling 😅
That sounds like an extremely good way to ensure they cling even tighter to the lies sold by the Tates of the world
Antagonism is extremely effective at shutting people off from change. If you antagonize someone and they actually change, they almost certainly could have been better reached through compassion.
And when, like the vast majority of people exposed to antagonism, they don’t? You have now convinced them anyone outside their bubble is unreasonable and cruel, and given them a sense of persecution they will reflexively hide behind any time they’re confronted with an outside perspective
That sounds like an extremely good way to ensure they cling even tighter to the lies sold by the Tates of the world
That’s because you’ve bought into the right wing propaganda. The endless campaign to coddle fascists has only ever produced more fascists.
Holy, this thread is a mess. If you think all men who struggle dating are fascists, this conversation ends here. If you accept the fact that not every man not in a relationship is a fascist, then we can talk. More specifically, we can talk about how the point isn’t to “coddle fascists”, but rather to not antagonize new men into the arms of Andrew Tate and others.
Is someone with social anxiety, therefore struggles dating, a fascist? You might know a far-right socially anxious guy, sure, but that doesn’t prove anything beyond the fact that this one person is a fascist. I’m not sure how it’s right wing propaganda to say that generalization is bad. But I’m also not sure whether you realize an issue (in this case, men struggle with relationships) can have more than one cause.
Word. I’m demisexual and greyromantic. The idea that any guy who isn’t dating or may have trouble dating is a fascist is inherently aphobic.
If you think all men who struggle dating are fascists
No idea where you got that. But I do see a lot of fascists who alienate women as friends and partners, then grow resentful when they don’t receive “respect” they feel they deserve.
This can quickly escalate into stalking and further violence against family or ex-partners, unless other people intervene.
The idea that a violent misogynist shouldn’t be argued with or deterred, because their sense of superiority is more important than anyone else’s safety is what’s brought us to the modern fascist moment.
Is someone with social anxiety, therefore struggles dating, a fascist?
If “social anxiety” means lashing out at women in order to force them to comply with your demands?
Absolutely.
What a dumbass take.
Dead isn’t precise enough. Expensive is generally what they mean. Along with many free spaces being dead.
Having to spend money to socialize is a concern for many. Often times this is a lack of a car too. Or lack of public transportation. Sprawl, Stroads.
It’s a multi variate thing when people quip that third places are dead.
I mean, the answer is that it is both. Like, not having close friends sucks. And not getting laid sucks. And both are valid and legitimate things to complain about.
Like, honestly, the “skill issue” take is super toxic. It’s basically the same as telling a poor person that not being rich is a skill issue. The lack of understanding and compassion for peoples’ legitimate problems will only radicalize them further.
It’s not both because “not getting laid” has nothing to do with the male loneliness epidemic and is not what people mean when they talk about it
It’s clearly both. Men who are lonely tend to not get laid, either.
Getting laid is an activity that does involve other humans, so it certainly is a method of combatting loneliness. But if it’s not as part of a partnership, it hardly does anything for some of the deeper cutting problems that are described as the “male loneliness epidemic”, particularly not having anyone to share your struggles with…
The issue is that for a lot of lonely men (probably most), the issue is social ineptitude, hangups and all the issues in modern life that make forming connections hard. That impacts their ability to form friendships, find romantic partners and to get casual sex.
Some men might be able to get casual sex but not friendships, but I doubt that’s true for most.
For me, while getting laid regularly doesn’'t actually solve any of the other problems in my life, it is like an “easy button” for being happy. Things have to be pretty bad for me to get upset when I’ve had sex in the last few days or expecting it soon. Unfortunately I’ve never been able to maintain a relationship where that is the case so it ends up having the opposite effect until I eventually end things and go back to being just mid all the time.
I’m getting laid regularly and also incapable of joining voice chat with my best friend or inviting them over.
Yes I’m in therapy, it’s helping, thanks.
Also tend to be a less “relaxing presence”, creating a bit of a negative feedback loop.
So it’s misnamed?
What do we call the epidemic where males are lonely in general? We … are discussing that very real problem affecting the minority sex, right?
Right?
What do we call the epidemic where males are lonely in general?
The male loneliness epidemic
the men who won’t man up need to be told to man up, especially if they tried to man up by imitating a child predator fascist.
That language will get you nowhere fast. Given that this post is meant to highlight toxic masculinity and its negative repercussions, “manning up” is the furthest thing from what they should do. Redefining what it means to be strong is closer
“redefining what it means to be strong” is stupid
maybe reconnecting with strength and disparaging weak conceptions of strength
I cannot fucking wait for the day Lemmy ships the “blocking an instance removes its users from comment threads” feature.
There are plenty of good people on .world. Being tribalist over a few ignorant takes is absolutely assinine and is the exact kind of thought process they are using against lonely men. Do better if you’re so wise as to understand the loneliness epidemic.
the problem isn’t the good people on .world.
the problem is the endless horde of dipshits on .world who need to do a lot more detox from shithole social media like reddit, and stop spewing their ignorance into every comment section they infest in the meantime.
since they won’t stop doing that shit at anywhere near the rate necessary for me to enjoy & derive value from this place, I will be removing them from my default experience the instant that option becomes available to me.
it’s on the good people of .world to either help their compatriots self-improve, or find a less shitty instance. because when it comes right down to it, there are a hell of a lot of good people not on .world for me to talk to, and that’s plenty. the ones who stay indefinitely on a shitty instance are not irreplaceable. not by a long shot.
We’re not compatriots, you tribalistic buffoon. We’re random people on the internet. I’ve met just as many idiots and trolls from other instances, but you don’t hear me screeching at random users to fix other users… You’re anthropomorphising of instances is pathetically small-brained, frankly.
I think you’re funny, spewing your impotent frustration. At least I actually want men to man up.
What is this place anyhow? I get pushback on .world for telling feminists that men’s problems won’t be fixed if they understand the patriarchy harder, and here people are defensive of the notion that politics made some men really shitty.
Did a bunch of lonely men end up here instead of lemmy world?
You are making the mistake of anthropomorphising communities. There are no singular trains of thought here. There are just people of many sorts posting messages for others to read. Full stop.
The only instances that might warrant some anthropomorphizing are those with stated goals and admin approved joining. That is the only condition a singular identity of some sort should be expected to arise.
The only sort of unifying factor for lemmy is “not reddit”, which includes nerds of many sorts, leftists of ALL sorts (which is its own entire topic of how freaking diverse that is), and the few who simply want to try a different media that’s like reddit.
You seem to be using politics as a cudgel against men instead of attempting to understand the social forces that are creating this problem in the first place. There are forces that push ignorant men to those politics you’re so fond of making fun of. Forces that come before the politics.
You can pretend to not understand all you want, but your ignorance won’t be tolerated for long here.
You are making the mistake of anthropomorphising communities. There are no singular trains of thought here. There are just people of many sorts posting messages for others to read. Full stop.
Yeah ok but you are not immune from having a local culture sorry
leftists of ALL sorts (which is its own entire topic of how freaking diverse that is),
so is it like the subset of leftists that isn’t outright commie?
You seem to be using politics as a cudgel against men instead of attempting to understand the social forces that are creating this problem in the first place.
yes, because using the cudgel is preferable to endlessly theorizing
You can pretend to not understand all you want, but your ignorance won’t be tolerated for long here.
🫡
And by dismissing their very real issues as a trivial matter not worthy of even discussing, you’ve now pushed them into the arms of people who make false promises and exploit them.
Congrats, you shot yourself in the foot.
I’m not saying that punishing politically toxic men is trivial, I’m saying it’s worth doing. You can’t make a man change by pandering to him, you have to actually communicate with them directly, or they’ll tune you out.
What you’re doing is not communicating with them. You’re preemptively dismissing them as your enemy and then acting surprised when they walk towards those who are acting welcoming.
“Not immediately insulting them over their voiced concerns” isn’t pandering…
I get you. Some of these boys need to be told to get out there and get scared. Everyone wants to huddle in their comfort zone, and to hell with anything or anyone that drags them out. That’s a toxic black hole. If you’re not experiencing some discomfort and fear, you’re not living life.
Had to break myself away from that black hole today. Went out to my camp. Ah fuck me it sucks out there in the summer. You gotta bathe in bug spray, and reapply constantly. Thought I would stroke out several times. Got some walking and shooting in, got some work done, came home and showered, feel great. Imagine if I had sat at this keyboard all day talking to you fuckers. Downward spiral.
Bravery is being scared and doing it anyway. Be brave.
The problem is that attitude of yours fixes nothing. Blaming the individual when there ARE many more societal contributing factors is ignorant at best and hateful at worst.
You may as well blame every poor person individually for being poor instead of things like minimum wage having not changed significantly in 30 years.
You may as well be one of those idiots telling people to recycle more plastic to fix global warming instead of blaming the massive industries that pollute millions of times more than any individual ever could and spend their billions bribing politicians to keep the gravy train going.
Most people do not have a “camp” to go out to. Your privilege is clearly making you fucking ignorant on this topic, and you need to shut up and listen to everyone else on this one.
Good lord are you worked up with assumptions! I say again, young men need to get off the coach and get out their comfort zones. This is a thing anyone can do. You don’t need 2 acres of swamp, you can go walk till you drop, talk to a girl, go somewhere you’re leery of, anything that scares you will do. We can’t experience bravery without fear, and we can’t live a full life without bravery. Anything less is merely waiting to die, and no one deserves that.
I’m not blaming these men, and if we’re making assumptions, that smells like victim mentality. Fuck all that. As I said:
these boys need to be told
How to encourage them to get out and purposefully be uncomfortable? I have no ideas. But it has to happen or we lose a generation to ennui, depression and reclusive dweebs. Again, downward spiral. That’s a hella gravity well to escape.
As active as I am, been fighting it for a year since I lost my job. Young guy across the street and I were tight a couple of years back. Now he sits and plays video games all day, growing fatter every time I see him, zero social life. What am I doing? Chatting with you people. I’m certainly not helping him. Best get off my ass and eat my own dog food. Charity starts at home they say! :)
And don’t for one fucking second lecture me on privilege. I understood and internalized the fact of my luck and status since the 90s, since long before society at large started talking about the concept. You been alive that long? How many stories you want where I felt my privileges in my very guts? I am well fucking aware, thank you for your concern.
You are way out of line and owe me an apology. That’s not a thing I say online, but you have wronged me, put me in boxes I don’t fit in or deserve.
You are using one person to judge every single lonely male. Congratulations on further proving your utter inability to think beyond steroetypes. Your mind is truly a vapid space of generalities and presumptions. Just stop commenting on this topic for your own good because you are just constantly proving the sheer depths of your ignorant judgement.
(Can’t edit my own posts)
Just texted the guy. Nah. He just jumped in a game with some people. See what I mean?! He’s getting fatter and more antisocial by day by day. He’s in his comfort zone, totally unbothered. I’m not baggin’ on gaming, but outside a part-time jobs, that’s all he does!
I mean it also does mean the first thing tho no?
I’ve only rarely heard it used as a shorthand for “I/we/you can’t get laid”. I’ve always interpreted it to mean the first thing. OP isn’t wrong about the second though, honestly. It is a skill issue.
Only if youre ableist.
Sure, there are a minority of people who have legitimate physical disabilities that make it difficult for them to get laid, or impossible to have sex at all. I was under the impression that we were discussing the general case, though. I’m not going to prefix every comment I make with a statement about the exceptions when I’m speaking casually.
It makes conversation awkward and difficult to follow, because you have to dig through the throat-clearing and ass-covering to figure out what the person is trying to say. If you want to discuss those exceptions, feel free to bring them up, but if you feel that I’m ableist for refusing to pad out all my comments with performative acknowledgements to satisfy your asinine sense of morality, then I don’t know what to tell you. Well, actually, I guess I do: “No”.
Right, it’s very early and I rarely (if ever) have a sexual appetite, so Imma need clarification: how is getting laid not a skill issue? It is my understanding that if people want it enough, they find ways to change themselves or their circumstances to make it happen.
Just like how if people want to be billionaires enough, they find ways to change themselves or their circumstances to make it happen. People only have partial control over who they are and the circumstances they’re in, and the changes they’re able to make don’t always make a difference here.
depends on your circles. in feminist and leftist circles, it usually means the first
but most men outside of those circles use it just to mean “im not getting the dates i am ENTITLED to 😡”
I don’t know who gave you that idea, but it’s incorrect
That would be my husband’s friend from college who despite getting lots of interest on dating apps; wants nothing to do with any of the women interested in him.
And I quote:
Too fat
Too old
Too skinny
Too young
Butter face
She has a PHD
She has kids
Etc etc
She has a PHD
wat.
Apparently some guys seem to have problems dating women who are better educated than them for some reason. I don’t get it and neither does my husband but it is a thing.
Actively wanting to date someone less intelligent than oneself feels like predatorial behaviour.
The number of predatory men in the dating scene in the USA would horrify the few decent men who show up. There are very many women who would rather be trapped in a room with a bear than with a random man.
At least when a bear attacks us does no one doubt that it happened to us; the same cannot be said about men.
I can’t believe people are downvoting you, I totally heard something similar about some guys who don’t like dating women who make more money than they do… It’s just kinda funny to see “PhD” sticking out like that…
And then, on the other hand, are women who don’t like dating men who don’t make more money than they do: https://nypost.com/2019/09/25/women-are-struggling-to-find-men-who-make-as-much-money-as-they-do/
She has higher education -> She earns more -> “She can’t be earning more than me, I’m supposed to provide for the household!!!”
I assume it’s something along those lines?
Perhaps it’s a self worth thing. If she’s making more than you, what reason does she need to keep you around if someone else comes along?
I haven’t got along well with any of the women with PHDs I’ve known but it wasn’t a very large sample size for me to write them off as a whole. If I ran into too many more that had the same personality type as the ones I met I might consider it though because they were frustrating to be around. It wasn’t that they were smarter than me, it was that they wouldn’t even listen to me on subjects I was more knowledgeable about.
Sounds like they were just inconsiderate people. I have seen that same behavior in people who didn’t even finish High school.
Most who have pursued a PhD, and all who attain it, are the lost ones.
These poor souls live only a half life now. He was right to fear her.
We have walked through the valley of insanity, bashed our heads on the walls of frustration only to seek the next valley, the next wall for we thought we glimpsed enlightenment only a decade ago and have dreamed of it since. Sayeth not whether one draws close or hath traversed a false path. Half a life! Bah! A whole life and more is demanded and others too drawn in, burn thy candle from every end lest thou be cursed with an eternal postdoc and irrelevance.
PhD=permanent head damage lol.
“She has spent many years pursuing one small insignificant thing. Surely she will not give up on me any sooner!”
e: the more I think about it, the less sense it makes. wouldn’t even the manliest man want an advisor who is smarter than he? What Arthur does not have his Merlin? What Corleone does not have his consigliere?
I know. PhD —> YES
She has kids
I understand this perspective only if someone wants to remain childfree; it’s impossible to compromise on having kids or not, you either do or you don’t
If it’s just because he only wants his own biological kids, I’m less sympathetic
Depends on the specific circumstances, but i feel like it can be just as much of an issue, if you want children and don’t even care if they are biologically related to you.
Depending on how much the other parent of ones stepchildren is involved in their lives and their age, taking on a parenting role might not be wanted or even allowed. So you might have children living in your house, but won’t ever have a complete parental relationship with them. You will always have that additional relationship that needs to be build around, whether that be vacations or where you live.
That’s fair - I suppose there is more complexity & nuance for those situations than I initially thought about
Honestly, though, that sounds like an avoidant attachment style. He desperately wants intimacy, but it scares the bejeezus out of him, so he unconsciously finds a way to sandbag every potential connection.
Andrew Tate and Ben Shapiro say it’s spot on.
And you listen to them to figure out what’s correct and what isn’t?
Ahh yes, the absolute fucking idiots that are proud they don’t know how to cook or do laundry… Yep, they’re paragons of understanding things!
No hate OP but I hope you find better friends someday.
Oh, so it’s just the deliberate misunderstanding of a nuanced term, like what they did with toxic masculinity.
You got that backwards. Feminist and lefty leaning circles routinely dismiss the first as the second which is partly responsible for pushing young men further right.
deleted by creator
The problem is we live in a society pause for laugh track
Where men are told they have to get laid or their personhood is questionable and women are told they must never get laid or their personhood is questionable.
The result is that heterosexual men are frustrated, cisgender women everywhere are afraid of anything with a penis, and dating men as a transwomen is pretty fucking easy because men are tired and desperate.
Source: Am Transwoman
Trans people always have the greatest insight into these issues. Thank you!
I guess it comes from being between the typical roles.
The same predjudice also appears to apply to gay people.
Personally I’ve just opted out of the whole ordeal and don’t care what anyone has to say about my choice.
Do you have any idea how many femboys just went for me? I have to reject them all as it won’t work out, but I appreciate it I guess.
Meanwhile, a handful of women went for me. Like, I’m fine now with whatever happens. I simply accepted that people are different, and we don’t all have to have the same lives.
I’m tired of this bullshit attitude. It contributes to the very issues it diminishes. Men are allowed to have problems without being incels.
It’s not all men’s fault, but there are things you can do increase your chances. If your problem is that you never shower, then who is going to date you?
Way to trivialize the issue, dumbass. If it were as simple as showering, the mean critique would be “smelly” men, not “lonely incels”. Way to completely and utterly fail to understand that it is an emotional problem, not a physical one.
Ok, what is the emotional problem?
For example, if you easily get upset and attack other people for little reason, then who is going to date you?
If it is that you get sad sometimes, lots of people would date you.
There are far more emotions than “mad” and “sad”, so no wonder you cannot fathom the depths of this problem.
Fascinating, you seem to be telling me there is a problem with my though process, but instead of just telling me specifically what it is, you choose to insult me instead of answering my basic questions.
Is this the emotional problem you have?
There are literally hundreds of posts already made right here on this post explaining things further. So again, if you cannot understand the implications of me saying, “there are more than two emotions”, then perhaps you are simply too immature to understand it in the first place.
For your own good, grow up and learn what the word “nuance” means.
I have nuance, I have not claimed there were only two emotions. I gave an example of only two emotions. I know there are more than two. I just decided not to write them all out because they are uncountably many of them. That is also why I asked you, what specific emotional problem we are dealing with. So that we could get specific.
This is peak
“Well if you dont want to be homeless you should get a job”
Energy.
No, it’s more of “If you want to increase the probability of being in a relationship, you can work on yourself.” energy.
“If you don’t want to be homeless just get a job to get money and then rent a place to live”
See how that’s overly reductive to the point of it being a useless thing to add?
maybe that’s what you were intending to convey, but that is not at all what comes across.
The Tumbler OP is 100% not a man, if they were they‘d know not getting laid as a man is very often not a personal skill issue. I know many young men who are conventionally attractive and emotionally mature who just kind of have lost interest in dating even though they generally want a relationship.
I totally understand that between job/school, social media biases, self-worth doubts and economic insecurities, the incentive to navigate through predatory dating apps and toxic left/right bubbles just to meet another insta reels addict is minimal.
Staying single however makes you neither bloom nor gloom, it‘s just okay. Which is something I‘ve learned not to complain about given the current state of the world. Maybe someday I‘ll reconsider…
I’ve definitely been there quite a few times. I can get by romantically, but sometimes I just don’t have the energy. Finding someone you mesh with can be exhausting.
I have a handful friends of varying genders who seem to be in similar boats. I can’t be sure as I haven’t asked. It seems like the current options are inadequate for a good chunk of people.
Which is something I‘ve learned not to complain about given the current state of the world. Maybe someday I‘ll reconsider…
This is where I’m at. I have enough stress in my life without adding all the extra crap that comes with trying to date to it. Sure when things are going good it’s amazing but that never seems to last and then you end up in limbo trying to evaluate whether it’s worth stringing it along or ending it.
Assuming a roughly equal number of straight men and women, either a large amount of women are consistently sleeping with a small number of men or the same number of women are not having sex as men. The former is a pretty common incel assumption that would require women to be a hive mind, so imo the latter should be more true. In my experience as someone present in both male and female social circles, women tend to feel a lot more emotionally supported in platonic relationships while men tend to expect more emotional support from a romantic partner than a platonic friend. I think as a result, men tend to associate physical intimacy with emotional intimacy because they aren’t really getting either from their non-romantic relationships. You can see this in the way platonic men are so much less likely to hug each other or hold hands or cuddle than platonic women. So to me, OP is actually onto something with their original assumption. Not getting laid isn’t as much of a problem for women because they don’t expect as much emotionally from sex and romantic relationships since their emotional needs are fulfilled elsewhere. Imo, male loneliness isn’t so much a problem with modern dating or with women as a problem with the fact that social expectations placed on men are preventing men from feeling fulfilled outside of romantic relationships and sex. In conclusion, hug your bros and tell them everything will be okay and you’re proud of them.
You’ve literally just explained what the male loneliness epidemic is and its causes. It’s why it’s specific to men and a women not understand the nuance here is no diffeeent the people not understanding toxic masculinity.
There is actually some overlap in these two issues and it’s one of those rare moments where it’s women who need to shut up and listen because it’s not about them.
The loneliness epidemic is not a personal attack on women anymore than toxic masculinity is an attack on men. Ultimately, the loneliness epidemic is about reduce the male suicide rate. Anyone who takes it as any attack is misinformed and borders on a self absorbed asshole. Might as well just tell these men to kill themselves.
The solution isn’t for women to be more promiscuous because that doesn’t fix the problem and isn’t what anyone is suggesting is regards to this issue.
Casual sex does not cure loneliness for the majority of men. It may offer temporarily relief but even this isn’t true for all men.
Someone else pointed out I was really uncharitable with reading your post, just wanted to apologise. I’ll leave my crappy response up for some good ol public shaming
The question I posited was: if all signs point to men and women having equal amounts of sex, why is there no “female loneliness epidemic” but there is a “male loneliness epidemic”? I posit that the reason we think of sex as a benefit for male loneliness therefore can’t be quantity of sex but men must be getting something from sex that women either don’t need or are getting elsewhere. Since scientific evidence points toward gender differences being social and not innate, there must be something women are doing different socially that leads us to think of men as a population as in need of sex or intimate relationships but not women. I’m presenting a neutral logical argument here by way of discarding illogical conclusions, not accusing anyone of anything or implying that the comment above me was accusing women of being too promiscuous. I just wanted to ask the question of why are straight men lonely but straight women not lonely even though logically the two populations must be dating and having sex at approximately equal rates
Yes they responded to and expounded on that point… Did… did you even comprehend their post?
Oh yeah you’re right. I thought they were being sarcastic at points where I see they weren’t. Sorry about that
It’s about making the male feel special. You don’t get it, do you?
Everything will be okay and I’m proud of you.
I’d even go further to say that the male loneliness epidemic is tied with homophobia.
Not as in the usual way one thinks of homophobia, but as in a fear to do all these things women can do among themselves without being labeled gay or shunned by social peers as being needy or similar things.
Or better saying, it is the fear of having platonic male-male relationship being seen as homosexual relationship (hence, homophobia).
I think that’s part of it but less and less so nowadays and especially the younger generation. I think the aversion to physical or emotional closeness is more cultural memory at this point than homophobia, but it might still play a part. Like someone else pointed out, I think a big part of it is just wanting to feel a bit special but just not having existing avenues for support
I know many young men who are conventionally attractive and emotionally mature who just kind of have lost interest in dating even though they generally want a relationship.
Big mood. Not to try and jerk myself off about the cinventionally attractive part. But yeah modern dating has become so processed and transactional. As man it feels like you have to put so much work in and practically beg for a bit of time from someone thats git so many options that theyve started to objectify you and are basically just looking for any reason to pass on you and move on to the next person.
And then dating in person isnt much better. I never ever want to be the creepy guy that hits on a girl when shes just trying to enjoy herself, so unlesss a woman approaches me, ehich very rarely happens, im not finding someone that way.
And then dating from freinds has a lot of the same issues, i currently have a freind that i would date, shes given me some signals that she might feel the same way, but possibly also signals the complete opposite and since shes one of my closest freinds i dont want to risk ruining that freindship taking that shot.
Do it anyway. If she’s really a good friend, it won’t ruin the friendship.
Also the odds are high that you’re going to wish you did later.
Dumbass take.
A “skill issue” take, is just a republican “personal responsibility” take.
It’s dumb as fuck. How about you examine the systems that produce outcomes? Have you learned literally nothing from the last 50 years of the social justice movement?
Most women tend to not want to form relationships with misogynistic incels. That’s what’s seen as a skill issue.
Or men with autism or adhd. Cause that’s who you target with “just be more social and enjoyable.”
Men spending time to fix their financial issues instead of socializing up there too.
Don’t deprive the weak men of their agency. So many Trump toxicity ‘outcomes’ chose this.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feedback
The notion of cause-and-effect has to be handled carefully when applied to feedback systems:
Simple causal reasoning about a feedback system is difficult because the first system influences the second and second system influences the first, leading to a circular argument. This makes reasoning based upon cause and effect tricky, and it is necessary to analyze the system as a whole.
The solution to a complex system isn’t to fret about how complex it is, it’s to cut the feedback loop.
Weak men who developed toxic politics are caught in a feedback loop. Cut them out of it. Not complicated, just abrasive.
But you can continue constructing your nuanced and sympathetic understanding. These men just need to be understood, that will help them.
You’re advocating genocide, or at least, one step away from it, and you don’t even seem to realize it.
You also seem to have no grasp of how complex systems or feedback work, given that feedback is a necessary and inherent part of many systems and cannot just be ‘cut out’.
Quite frankly, you’re more toxic then most of the men you seem to despise.
it does not follow from the marginalization of the other that every time you experience the marginalization of the other, it is directly connected to genocide. humans are more than ideal atoms, and some of them need to be communicated with in the language of harsh blunt truth.
Men who are unfuckable because of their politics need to man up. If you are spending several hundred words to say: “please integrate a more healthy relationship with masculinity” which is literally just telling them to man up with extra steps that they are uninterested in, you should consider that they are man enough to need to hear: “man up.”
You sound like someone who has read a lot and understood very little.
You sound like someone with the word ‘master’ in their online internet name.
Sucks that men’s issues are being treated as a joke or mischaracterized as something else and not important.
It has nothing to do with getting laid.
Came here to say this.
I’m 42, happily married, and can’t find/keep/make a friend to save my life. My wife is very anti-social/introverted and has a good number of friends.
I cycle between thinking my interests suck, or I must just be un-fucking-bareable to be around and completely oblivious.
Maybe both… Probably both.
Man, I feel you. I am genuinely jealous of people who can walk in a room and be friends with everyone in a few minutes.
I’m in my 40s and made a number of new friends this year by getting involved with my local fighting game scene. If you’re into videogames at all I’d suggest trying it, and if you’re not into fighting games specifically there are absolutely people at your locals who will be happy, if not excited, to teach you.
Fighting games are unique among competitive games in that while there is no cooperative aspect in the game itself they have developed one of the most collaborative and friendliest gaming communities I have ever had the pleasure of interacting with.
The first rule of fighting game communities is that you don’t talk about fighting game communities. The second rule of fighting game communities is that you don’t talk about fighting game communities.
I am 43, currently dating someone, but this is more someone to spend some intimate time with, and do things with, with neither planning on anything deeper. I guess a type of friends with benefits. My last relationship was very long and serious, but we both had some serious issues, I went on to work on mine, she spent a few more years not trying to get help, and then she spent a few years with serious improvement, but died late last year. So I am not really trying for anything deep.
I moved to were I am about 6 years ago, I have several new friends, a number of acquaintances I get along with at social events, and said girlfriend. This is how it has always worked out for me. I am not sure why. I do believe that growing up in a situation where I moved every couple of years, and thus had to make new friends every time, kinda play a big role in how I developed. On top of this I have the blessing/curse of not experiencing anxiety, this often helps in the beginning, but that lack of inhibition can also turn a lot of people off. However, that is me.
This being said one of the biggest differences I see between me, and people around me who have no friends, is that I spend time researching what is going on where I live, and then I participate in it. Often I don’t even like what it is, but I would otherwise be sitting at home, so fuck it, might as well. Beyond this I go out of my way to talk to everyone, in a general group sense. I don’t hone in on one person, and I keep it very casual. The critical thing though, is that there is reciprocal conversation. I ask them something “Oh, hey I am new here, how long have you been guys been involved in this?” I try to keep it to where I am asking, comfortably non-invasive, questions about themselves, and try and get them to talk about themselves, and hopefully their interests. Then you make yourself a regular, and over time, the conversation become much more second nature, and you slowly get to know each other better.
Another thing is that I know a lot of people just won’t like me. That is fine. Even rude rejection is just a minor thing to me. I have been reject so many times that if I took it personally, well, I doubt I could deal with it. There are people out there with some sort of overlap between you and them, see if you can make this something. You need to view rejection as just a minor inconvenience. Move on. I see so many men who refuse to do the footwork to get this off the ground, and of those who do, I see many who display disturbing behavior over rejection. It is no wonder why women are scared to give definite answers, hand out fake phone numbers, and lie to create an exit for so many interactions.
Small talk is the gateway to real conversation. Finding places people go to socialize while doing a particular thing provides an immediate ice breaker, ie “Hey, I am new here, how long have you guys been doing this?”, as well as a topic to discuss. Rejection isn’t to be taken personally the vast majority of the time. Working on improving yourself is very important. Always be looking for things to improve on, discuss it. These places of interest are not obvious because society has decided you need to pay simply to be human these days, but unless you live in the middle of nowhere, there are things going on out there. Often these interest groups will meet at a designated house. If you can’t find one that you enjoy, go to one based on something you have not done before. Tell people you aren’t just new to the group, but to the whole thing. Get conversation off the ground by asking about the topic. You can make good friends from places created to do things you aren’t really interested in. What I would do is if I can’t find something that fits my interests, I look for things that are interests with a lot of cross over between that, and people who are interested in something I enjoy.
If you live in the middle of nowhere, and you are unhappy, and isolated, do anything to move away from that. It won’t be easy, and it won’t be comfortable, and it will be anxiety inducing, but that is all part and parcel of life. It sucks. Moving to places, and traveling is it’s own set of skills. People who don’t really do that, at least not often, can get overwhelmed with it. When I say anything I mean it. Sure, don’t like do something particularly dangerous, but it will have to become a singular goal you spend your time working towards. Living in a tiny rural area, where you have no friends, no interests, and you are isolated, is a death sentence. Not always literally, but internally. This tiny place is what it is, and if there is nothing for you, it is to small to change in a way that will work for you. You need to get out.
If your work/life balance is way out of whack, you will need to put a lot of effort into changing that. I spent a lot of time working 70+ hour weeks. It was literally killing me. I began spending the very little personal time I had looking for work that gave me some hope of having a life. I would have to make a lot of material sacrifices, as I would make significantly less, but the restructuring of my life, in that direction, was the only way I could avoid dying from stress in my office. This shit sucked, and ultimately my life collapsed, but that is a whole other story. Point being, if you have no life because you work all the time, that shit needs to change, and it isn’t going to be easy.
All of these things are skills, you need to practice them by doing them, and you need to learn how to accept failure, and course correction. You may also have depression, or other psych issues, and need therapy. Depending on where you are this can go from “well it’s there” to “this is an expensive luxury”. There is no real good answer here. Giving any real advice would require knowledge of all the things going on with you to make any type of recommendation.
I mean, it’s welcome. But it has more to do with everyone is an asshole, and not worth being around really.
Yes, I was so confused when reading this.
In so many words, this is just another “you’re lonely because you’re a bad person” misandrist jerk.
It’s not that bad.
The idea that men are struggling to find friends is a real concern that should be addressed, people being unable to find sexual companionship because people of their desired sex don’t want to be around them due to their personal choices is something that can be made fun of.
Many women want a guy who is pro choice, can cook, is able to hold a conversation that’s not about sex, is capable of having platonic female friends, has hobbies, and has decent hygiene.
If that is not something you can attain, that’s fine and there are still women out there for you but that eliminates a large percentage so if you want to be picky on top of that you are going to have a problem
The idea that men are struggling to find friends is a real concern that should be addressed, people being unable to find sexual companionship because people of their desired sex don’t want to be around them due to their personal choices is something that can be made fun of.
But conflating those two categories of men as if all lonely men are the latter, does no good to anyone, and only helps fuel misandric stereotypes.
The conflation is the problem but in my experience it is more people who are blaming the former when it is clearly the latter
Like if you walk around with a maga hat and tell women your body my choice and also complain you can’t find a nice women to settle down that is a skill issue
if you walk around with a maga hat and tell women your body my choice and also complain you can’t find a nice women to settle down
That’s an absurd stereotype that obviously doesn’t apply to the vast majority of lonely men, though.
Maybe the skill issue is in not realizing that.
P.S. Also, there are plenty of married couples who are both MAGA, and I myself had no shortage of single MAGA women popping up on dating apps when I was single who made it crystal clear they weren’t interested in anyone who wasn’t also MAGA, also anti-vax, etc.
P.P.S. ‘Your body my choice’ was a meme for like three weeks.
So tell me this then: When people hear that a man hasn’t dated, why is the first thing that comes to your mind the assumption that “you walk around with a maga hat and tell women your body my choice”? Is that the only explanation? Is there no nuance in the world? If a man has never dated, is he automatically MAGA and anti-abortion?
It’s not the first thought, however when a person blames society for all their problems instead of making an effort to improve themselves that screams maga
Plenty of people struggle to date for a variety of reasons but the people out there calling not get laid the “male loneliness epidemic” are generally not the most normal people
What about all the MAGA who got women? What did they do right?
Pro choice, sympathetic to womens issues, good cook, able to converse about many topics, platonic female friends, hobbies, good hygiene, >6ft tall, healthy weight, reasonably attractive, good degree and then job.
That is/was me and I’m happily married, but it took 7 years of putting a lot of effort into dating before I met her, and I was not picky about who I dated.
The idea that men can easily find a partner by meeting a few basic requirements is divisive tribalist nonsense.
It’s not that they can easily find a partner if they meet a few requirements it’s that lacking those requirements makes dating much harder and if you are struggling to get a girlfriend and when trying to think of reasons why it’s been hard and all you think to do is blame society instead of focusing on self improvement that’s a problem
Anecdotal evidence counts for shit but I’ll give it anyway of my friends/coworkers who complain “I can never find a good woman” about 3/4 have no hobbies where they ever interact with women and the last 1/4 fit the “I can’t have a normal conversation with a woman without trying to sleep with her”
Society itself does suck and it has made in person hobbies much less common with the death of the third space, isolating people through technology, and just how much it cost to live but I have never met a person who is even moderately social that has a hobby where they interact with people of the opposite sex, and has platonic female friends that couldn’t get a date in less than a year if they were actively searching.
Introverts need love too but if they look at their list of problems and rank “society hates men” above “I never see women in a social setting” that alone is their biggest problem
The problem with “just get hobbies to meet women” is it’s glaringly obvious when people are there to do that. You can’t force yourself to enjoy an activity; you’ll naturally do what you want, which is approach women.
I have never met a person who is even moderately social that has a hobby where they interact with people of the opposite sex, and has platonic female friends…
Kind of a pointless truism. Dating is a numbers game, more encounters is more success. You even admit it could take this prospect up to a year of effort, now imagine that you have to build that opportunity network from scratch.
It is a pointless truism, and it is a numbers game which is why it’s so shocking people don’t see that!
So if one persons spends 1 hour a week with eligible women and the other person spends 10 hours a week with eligible women the second person is statistically much more likely to find a partner.
And if you spend only 1 hour a week with eligible women and instead of increasing that time you just decide to blame society that’s a you problem
There is also a difference between pretending to be interested in something to get laid and trying to find ways to do things you find interesting with other people
The time and energy investment to get those hours is not linear. Going from 0 hours to 1 hour is (by definition) a massive change. You’re describing the solution as if there’s an accessible way to make meaningful connections in the digital era. If it were as simple as described, we wouldn’t have this societal problem because humans really don’t like being lonely.
…a difference between pretending to be interested in something to get laid and trying to find ways to do things you find interesting with other people
What’s the difference? Your advice never said the hobby needs to interest you. This whole conversation is about finding companionship and intimacy, not group hobbies.
Also, all of this argument puts aside that diving into new group activities is time and resource intensive. Having the time, flexibility and money to switch between them just to meet a few new people is an incredible privilege. It also inherently assumes you have access to these groups. Guess if you live in a social desert or don’t have reliable transportation you’re SOL and a loser for life?
You mention this as being because of the digital era but what about that is any different than 25 years ago? If you don’t have time to spend a few hours a week pursing a hobby how are you going to have time to be in a relationship? The cost of pursing hobbies is a real concern for lower income people but how has that changed? How were you supposed to date a person if you lived in a social desert with no reliable transportation before?
Maybe I haven’t been clear with what I am saying because you are grossly misunderstanding my point.
I am saying when you have a problem you should try and improve yourself to address the problem vs blame society. For example if you can’t figure out how to program in python: you could read about it, watch educational videos, or take a course. Going onto a message board and complaining that python is impossible and stating we are in a programmer epidemic while not trying to learn it first is bad. We can make the acknowledgement that python can be hard for some people to learn but calling it impossible to learn without having put in the effort is useless
Nobody here is arguing that Trump supporters or stinky men who only care about women for sex deserve to have partners.
It’s just that you and the OP don’t acknowledge that finding a partner is hard for a lot of men who aren’t jerks and have a reasonable amount going for them and the implication is that it’s own fault and they must be a dick.
If you flip the genders and make a statement like: “if a woman can’t find a decent man it must be their own fault. It’s easy, just go and take up some male dominated hobbies and take a shower.” Its an asshole thing to say, no?
So how about we try not to be assholes and have some empathy.
I have acknowledged it multiple times
I’ve looked and I don’t really see that you have. You seem pretty dismissive of the fact that this group actually exists and quick to jump to attacking maga cultists and gross men who disrespect women - who nobody here is sticking up for.
Did you look two comments up when I said
“ The idea that men are struggling to find friends is a real concern that should be addressed”
You think about this a lot, I respect that.
Alright, anedotical evidence time! I am aware I am in a bit of a bubble, as I try to avoid the local variant of maga as much as possible in my life.
But I know several single male friends who I would say are at least of average attractiveness, smart, funny, know how to use a shower and a toothbrush, have decent education/money, cool hobbies and are politically progressive. Also I know of at least three of them who are deeply unhappy about not getting into a meaningful relationship.
Sometimes people are just stuck in a life situation or a place with not many compatible options and ways to meet people.
How do you define “cool hobbies”
Skinning hookers in their basements, plotting the violent takeover of the government, woodworking, climbing, just the usual boy stuff, you know?
Jokes aside, “things that a large percentage of the population looks at and says, hey, that is a cool hobby”. How is that for a definition?
Woodworking is a fun thing to do and a great conversation starter but also commonly done at home or at a shared work area that is all male
Rock climbing and plotting the violent takeover of the government has worked well for me however
Many women want a guy who is pro choice, can cook, is able to hold a conversation that’s not about sex, is capable of having platonic female friends, has hobbies, and has decent hygiene.
As someone who is literally all of these, it’s still a nightmare to find a romantic partner. Personallt, I’ve given up on going out of my way to find someone, because every time I put myself out there I either get ignored or ghosted
Damn, the platonic female friends part really got me. Reality is sad.
If it’s misandrist to tell the Trump voters who modeled their personalities on empty victory declaration and hurting brown people, then I’m a proud misandrist. Men who suck don’t deserve to get laid. No one deserves sex.
Is it possible to have a discussion without some queball trying to make it about Trump?
a discussion about masculinity in the present political era with toxic online personalities and toxic politics and you’re upset that Trump gets mentioned? That’s a ‘you’ problem.
We are on @lemmy.world, it is allowed to not be American.
the Trump voters who modeled their personalities on empty victory declaration and hurting brown people
???
Are you assuming lonely men all fit the above description? If so, that’s idiotic.
If not, then I don’t know what the fuck you’re on about, lol.
I think a lot of lonely men do fit that description; studies show that political division is affecting dating. It’s not that complicated.
Stereotyping and generalizing is uncomplicated by nature, yes. That’s the whole point, after all—to prejudge so that you can ‘spare’ your mind the effort of considering individual situations and circumstances.
Mass individual situations are contemplated through generalizations. I’m not interested in every snowflake.
You tell them.
You’re very much part of the problem. Reddit would be a much better fit for you.
Not all lonely men are Trump supporters
All Trump supporters who are lonely have some work to do and don’t really deserve sympathy.
Indeed, but my heart is going out to the ones who aren’t Trump supporters
Why do you believe that lonely men must suck? Like, do you think men who would be decent partners just immediately find success and leave the dating pool, never to vent their frustration with modern dating culture?
Studies show that political division is affecting dating.
The political environment involves a lot of broken weak men who learned broken weak masculinity and that’s affecting dating.
You… do realize there are lonely men in other countries, right? Like, the US is not the only place on Earth? Ah yes, the infamous Trump voters from checks notes … Norway, Egypt, Japan, etc.
And if you’re gonna say “Well they’re not voting for Trump but some other Trump-like politician”, don’t bother. You can’t generalize every man, half the world population, just because you know men who voted Trump/Trump equivalents. Because if that’d be how it works, I could just as easily find you a woman that voted Trump and then point out how, supposedly, women suck cause they vote Trump based on this “evidence”.
.world ass take
Frankly my positioning on men and feminism is also received negatively on lemmy world. Everyone’s all about extending compassion and sympathy to men as subjects in an attempt to control them. Someone suggested we ‘redefine strength.’ To me strength cannot be redefined: you can only accept that many men are lonely because of their own choices and do, in fact, need to man up.
It isn’t easy, you know? It’s whether you get it or you don’t. Being fit and reliable is hard to some people.
Thank you for perfectly demonstrating one aspect of the peoblem you claim to understand. Assuming all lonely men are conservative is not only wrong but fucking stupid and extremely judgemental. Thank you for proving that you do not understand this problem what so ever, so now you can be safely ignored for the rest of this conversation.
Yeah. Politicians won’t get nowhere telling the population about their next NO-BLUEBALLS Act.
Drag’s partner deserves sex. Lots of it. Until it can’t think straight.
Haven’t seen you in awhile Drag, wonderful to run into you. First time on my new instance! (Had to switch form Lemm.ee)
There something quite ableist about all of this.
As if everyone can pull themselves up by their bootstraps without the support of a community around them.
and then i learned what people meant by it (men arent getting laid)
Weird post, that literally just isn’t a thing at all. This reads like a thinly veiled attempt to try to put down people they perceive as “not getting laid”. This kind of “skill issue” attack rhetoric actually contributes to the male loneliness epidemic
It’s as ironic as it is frustrating that so many of the same people who’d be outraged at the notion of a woman’s value being determined in any part, by whether she is a virgin, will, gleefully and without irony, consider virginity not only a valid, but a go-to insult to use against men.
Double standards are so irritating.
Also all the “progressives” who use penis size as insults. Like, are you trying to promote toxic masculinity?
Especially frustrating when they try to justify it because it’s aimed at a ‘bad guy’. Doesn’t change the fact that penis size is as immutable as height, and is therefore completely idiotic to use as basis for insult.
Not to mention the complete lack of empathy and consideration for all of the decent guys who have penises that are ‘small’ too, who are catching strays for no good reason every time that’s used as an insult.
…height, and is therefore completely idiotic to use as basis for insult.
Boy do I have some bad news for you, “manlet” is also perfectly valid in their eyes.
It’s not news to me, my choice of height for the analogy versus something like eye color, which also would have worked, was deliberate.
I’m extremely wary of anyone who insults or compliments others or even themself, based on any immutable characteristic.
Yeah, right? Sex isn‘t even a huge aspect of why I‘d want a relationship anymore. It would complement it, sure, but if the relationship otherwise is just an expensive, instagram story bullshit, body insecurity fuelled mess where eating disorder meets self-worth anxiety…fuck no!
I just want someone to hug and cuddle with atp if I‘m being real. Does sharing this on lemmy make me “weak” and “un-manly” in the eyes of society? Maybe, but that‘s part of a problem I honestly don‘t care about any longer.
To me, it reads like they’re just extrapolating the statements from the loudest group of people who tend to yell online about the male loneliness epidemic (incels that blame women for their celibacy) out and assuming that’s the majority opinion, which actually tends to be more referencing actual loneliness in general. Either that, or they just worded it a little badly.
I do agree that the rhetoric can be a bit detrimental though.
That isn’t what people mean by it. Loneliness means loneliness.
Imagine what would happen if somebody said this about women. Are you lonely, ladies? Have you tried being enjoyable and relaxing? And you should smile more!
Yeah, the OP can suck eggs on this one.
Well this is just… Wrong. The “loneliness epidemic” doesn’t just have to do with getting laid. What an absurd take.
Having sex is just a part of it, because lo and behold sex is a healthy and normal part of the human biological process.
However, ask a man what it’s like trying to make friends. Or if they made any new friends as of late… Or in the past 5 years. Yes, just friends, not sexual partners.
You’ll find a lot of guys past the school phase and into the work/career phase haven’t made any new friends. If you’re a man with a career then congrats! You probably have money. But no real time to make new friends, get back in touch with old friends, or find someone to date. If you’re a man with work, but not a career, you’re probably broke most of the time. Too broke to go or do anything.
Even men in relationships, having families, can suffer from loneliness. Yeah, you got a wife, abd maybe a kid… but you still need friends!
An issue with this loneliness problem is that it’s not taken seriously, and dismissing it as “Oh it’s just a sex thing. Git gud.” is exactly that. Not difficult to see how something like the so-called “manosphere” can swoop in; religions, cults, and similar find the lost, stuck, and disenfranchised easy prey.
