You already had camps tbh, you’ve had them for many years now
I hate that evil Emperor Palpatine. That’s why I support Dedra Meero for Emperor. She’s a real firecracker that believes in the righteousness of the Empire to maintain order.
Its been over a year and people still are freaking out about this? And not the fact that the democrats have basically rolled over at every turn to trump and the GOPs demands?
The dems did not do s good job mobilizing their voter base. A bunch of people didnt like genocide. A bunch of people didnt like Biden. A bunch of people held their nose and voted for him the first time when he said he would get rid of student loans and be a one term president. He reneged on almost every single promise he made. He then committed genocide. People didnt like it. The DNC shoved him and Kamala down everyone’s throats instead of having an actual election. They’ve fucked themselves 3 cycles in a row now and then start complaining about socialists.
They were all vote blue no matter who when it was Biden or Kamala but now Mamdani won in NY and they’re all teaming up with the Republicans to stop him. Maybe thats why they keep fucking losing - they dont want to listen to their own base.
What do regular people want? Higher taxes on the rich, more affordable housing and food, Healthcare for all, and good education. All they’ve done is say well this will hurt billionaires feelings so we cant do it.
ITT: A bunch of people who think getting Trump elected was the right thing to do, because harm reduction is bad.
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Sorry are civilians carpet-bombed in america? Are they throwing white phosphorus at your family? How can you play the victim lmao
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Thank you. I really don’t get those people.
And I mean, the Democratic party doesn’t exist in a vacuum. If you don’t try to change anything, of course the awful “moderates” stay in charge. But it is possible to overtake them, just look at Mamdani. But some people won’t even try that because “it’s a lost case”…
He now holds the primary attendance record in NYC. It was only 30% of eligible voters, up from 21% in the last election. That’s literally all it takes. We just need to show the fuck up.
Congressional primaries see less than 15% attendance. We’ve been letting retirees pack our ballots with centrists for 40 years, then complain about our choices in the general elections. We wouldn’t be calling for term limits if we consistently participated in primaries.
Well that and ranked choice, right?
He won majority first round. Granted, I’d love to see ranked-choice in our federal elections, but that didn’t matter in Mamdani’s case.
Would people have felt empowered to vote for him first if it wasn’t ranked choice?
I believe so. The massive increase in zero prime voters (people who haven’t voted in a primary before) was due to his grassroots campaign.
No “progressive” will have an answer for you on this. Voting isn’t the answer, blah blah blah. But it seems no one ever really tried. Otherwise maybe they’d just organize people into voting in every primary.
No “progressive” will have an answer for you on this. Voting isn’t the answer, blah blah blah. But it seems no one ever really tried. Otherwise maybe they’d just organize people into voting in every primary.
Mamdani also won the primaries because Harris/Biden and the DNC being punished in the presidential election weakened them just enough that they couldn’t strangle Mamdani politically anymore. Not that they didn’t and still try.
The DNC could not have offered him less support in his primary campaign. He won over the city with 50k volunteers going door-to-door, a strong social media campaign, and his focus on the concerns of the working class New Yorker.
And Kamala losing galvanized that volunteer effort. Mamdani would not have won the primary if Kamala were currently sitting in the White House. Kamala losing did huge damage to the brand of every corporate Democrat. Kamala winning would have showed that that kind of candidate is still viable. Cuomo would have coasted to an easy victory.
They are either trying to trick people into not voting against the GOP or they have been tricked themselves.
“Both sides are the same” has been a bad faith argument I’ve heard from conservatives for decades.
or they have been tricked themselves.
Worse. They think martyrdom and purity politics are preferable to making any sort of actual difference. They have to keep their souls pure, you see.
It’s religion for the irreligious.
I think that’s a little simpler than that: one of those options requires a great deal of risk, while the other does not. It takes a lot of courage to stand up to the current system and fight for change.
Not everyone can be brave.
I’m not trying to make an excuse for these people and their cowardice, I’m just trying to offer a better explanation.
The bravery of… Throwing LGBTQ+ people under the bus and trying to force violent conflict. Nah. I don’t buy it.
I’m not trying to make an excuse for these people and their cowardice
Good thing, too, because that explanation would only increase my contempt for them, LOL!
It’s funny you mentioned this because I was thinking about this before you commented: if these people are simply stupid and weak, is it really right to feel contempt for them? It’s not that they made a conscious choice to be this way. I understand being resentful, which I am too, but is it really ethical to feel contempt for someone when it’s an involuntary character flaw that may not be able to be remedied?
It feels like judging someone for having a mental or psychological disability. I have pity for them. And I feel that those who can should do for those who can’t. Because that’s the only useful thing I can take from the situation, the only solution I can see. Because this sort of thing can’t be avoided, it’s just one of those things we, as a society, have to get through. But there are better ways of getting through it then pointing fingers and blaming the weak and stupid for being weak and stupid when it’s not their fault.
Smart people who do stupid things, and those who are willfully, ignorant, obviously that’s a choice for which I have contempt. But for those who were too weak and too stupid?
I don’t know… It’s just something I was thinking about.
“vote blue no matter who” is peak martyrdom politics.
Do you know why Mamdani won the primaries? Because he actually promises change. The argument wasn’t to never vote Democrats. The argument was to punish them unless they produce a decent candidate.
If Harris wasnt punished, the DNC that is fighting Mamdani by and large would have been to strong and most likely had prevented Mamdani.
“vote blue no matter who” is peak martyrdom politics.
“Martyrdom politics is when you want to prevent fascists from murdering people instead of embracing it in the hopes that it will cause the people’s hearts to spontaneously fill with l’Internationale after seeing how nobly marginalized groups are murdered!”
Uh, okay.
Do you know why Mamdani won the primaries?
Because NYC has enough progressives to elect a progressive in a Dem primary, and progressives decided to actually turn out for once?
If Harris wasnt punished, the DNC that is fighting Mamdani by and large would have been to strong and most likely had prevented Mamdani.
Jesus fucking Christ.
Jesus fucking Christ.
Did you just forget the lesson of Nuremberg? You’re supposed to punish people who commit crimes against humanity. Doesn’t matter what party they belong to. Doesn’t matter what other good they might be capable of doing. You must have been a huge fan of Operation Paperclip. After all, we couldn’t hang those evil Nazi scientists, we can use their talents!
The Democrats support Fascist commiting genocide in Palestine.
Did you follow any of the primary debates? How all the other DNC candidates sucked up to Israel how they would go there first? How the Zionist lobby rabidly spouted accusations of Antisemitism against Mamdani?
If Harris/Biden,who declared themselves loyal Zionists had won, these campaigns would have hit even stronger.
It is the fact that people understood the genocidial status quo of the party has to end, that gave Mamdani the momentum.
The Democrats support Fascist commiting genocide in Palestine.
Luckily, you threw your support behind the fascists who want the Zionists to commit even more genocide in Palestine, creating glorious martyrs for some vaguely leftist cause in the US that never seems to actually rear its head!
This is definitely not martyrdom politics though!
Any number of dead Palestinians, after all, is worth
you feeling smugshowing the shitlibs what for.If Harris/Biden,who declared themselves loyal Zionists had won, these campaigns would have hit even stronger.
It is the fact that people understood the genocidial status quo of the party has to end, that gave Mamdani the momentum.
lmao
Yes, that’s it. The mayor of New York was elected on the strength of his foreign policy positions.
Utter insanity.
The Zionist lobby in New York went rampant against Mamdani. So yes, the primary was heavily influenced by foreign politics.
The point is that socialism cannot be achieved by electoral means. At best, if the masses in the street really pressure those in power, you get social democracy. That being said the choice for Americans was neoliberalism or fascism. The reasons for fascism winning go deeper than “the left was to whinny”, but that’s beside the point being made here.
neoliberalism
People here keep using that word uncomprehendingly like they’re a dumb AI matching & associating on the root liberal.
Neoliberalism is free market capitalism, a conservative ideology embraced by Margaret Thatcher & Ronald Reagan. Democrats are for many things: environmental regulation, social safety nets, market regulation, spending on social programs, labor protections, consumer protections, etc. That’s a far cry from free, unregulated markets.
The Democratic platform is a far cry from proper safety nets and regulations.
Every Democratic president since Clinton was a neoliberal. Now that Trump is going with protectionism, they are in essence more neoliberal than the Republicans.
In the most recent elections, Kamala talked good shit initially, until her corporate allies talked her down, and like the good little neoliberal she is she started sputtering out market-based “solutions” to everything.
Every Democratic president since Clinton was a neoliberal.
Nah: they passed the ACA, expanded Medicaid, passed Dodd-Frank Wall Street reforms, started the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, tried to ban non-compete clauses, tried to enact rules for “click to cancel” subscriptions & end junk fees, standardized disclosure of fees for finance services, voted in the FTC to enforce right to repair, sustained social programs. That & much more happened after Clinton (whereas Republicans defunded Medicaid, added restrictions, defunded SNAP, defunded school lunch programs, rolled much of this back).
You just have a memory deficiency.
The ACA is not that different from Romneycare or the old Republican HEART bill that was proposed in opposition to Clinton’s attempts at passing universal healthcare. It remains a market-based solution.
The establishment of the CFPB, like the passing of the ACA, was a stripped-down pro-market version of what could have been.
In terms of foreign policy, the Democrats have enthusiastically supported and continued to support the globalisation of capital through such agreements as NAFTA and continued various imperialist adventures (Obama’s use of drones is legendary).
In terms of workers rights, a lot of the bullshit from the Reagan years is still alive and well, unquestioned by the mainstream of either big party (it is frequently said on Lemmy and elsewhere that nearly everything wrong with modern America can be traced back to Reagan). Antitrust measures remain largely unenforced.
Stuff like this is well within the preview of other neoliberal parties like Fianna Fail/Fine Gael or the CDU. They too have limited market-based “solutions” to social problems. Just tax carbon emissions and the market will fix climate change. Stimulate more housebuilding and homelessness will be solved. This pattern continues.
Only during Biden’s term was there some deviation from the old formula, in the form of stimulus checks and more investment in infrastructure, along with some support of trade unions. These were good steps in a shift towards the social-liberal wing of the party. Kamala leaned into this early in the campaign but then towards the end she decided it was better to get the endorsement of people like Dick Cheney.
The matter is simple. Yes or no: are they for market regulation & intervention? Yes. Therefore, they’re not neoliberal.
You can hue & cry all you want, but words mean things. If you want a word that means not anti-market, then find that word. Neoliberal isn’t it.
Your criticisms of those social programs & market regulations only amount to claiming they don’t go far enough even though they definitely are market regulations & interventions. If they weren’t social programs & market regulations, then the Republicans wouldn’t have anything to cut & deregulate as they are doing: the current administration is rescinding consumer & labor protections proposed by the previous administration & they’re restricting & defunding major public programs (Medicaid, SNAP, medical research, public health programs, national weather service, public broadcasting). While you seem to take these programs & regulations for granted, treat them like nothing, & act like they weren’t a significant undertaking that could only barely scrape through our political obstacle course, they make a significant difference in people’s lives.
What Republicans offer with their senseless trade war & cuts isn’t protections to the working class, but the illusion of protections to some domestic businesses while exploiting other domestic businesses (reliant on international trade), labor (losing protections from defunded regulatory agencies & programs), consumers (shafted with consumer protection losses, tariff costs, less affordable goods & services) & while transferring income from the poor to the rich.
Calling market regulation & social programs neoliberal indicates you don’t know the meaning of words. Market intervention & regulation isn’t free, unregulated market, ie, neoliberalism. Any policy in support of a mixed economy with regulated markets suffices to not be neoliberal.
Comrade, the only people who are for complete nonintervention are right-“libertarians”.
To call the Democratic ideal a mixed market is kinda wild. Nearly everything that could be privatized already is, besides perhaps the post office.
I will not pretend that the current programs are not significant or that cutting them will not kill people. But the fact of the matter is that it’s peanuts compared to the social-democracy that reigned in Western Europe for most of the Cold War or even the social-liberalism of the pre-Reagan US.
I am not sure what your talk of the Republicans has to do with this. I am certain they’re not really neolibs though. They’re fascists, or close to it.
There are goals before socialism that ARE achievable electorally which are still worth pursuing in the meantime, like stalling fascists, or prevent genocide of immigrants and queer folks
Okay, so, which is easier for socialists to organize under? Neoliberalism, or fascism?
Neoliberalism, obviously. Kamala probably wouldn’t be in favour of people being abducted off the street and shoved into unmarked vans.
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Apparently that very controversial position makes us shitlibs instead of people who would like to not be abducted by unmarked secret police and taken to a black site while we try to organize socialist political movements.
Playing devil’s advocate here. It’s probably much easier to grow a resistance against fascism than neoliberalism, as neoliberalism is comfortable enough for most people.
Don’t you see? Only when it’s all ashes can we start the utopia. /s
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We need never be afraid of the vote of informed Americans. It is only the ignorant voter we have to fear, ignorant politically, no matter how fine his house or how expensive his schooling. Such people have never experienced democracy; they have merely enjoyed its benefits. It is hard to explain what democracy is; it is necessary to participate in it to understand it.
The former Berlin businessman I referred to earlier told me that he blamed his own group, people with the time and the money and the opportunity to know better, for what happened to Germany. “We ignored Hitler,” he said. “We considered him an unimportant fellow, not quite a gentleman, not of our own class. We considered it just a little bit vulgar to bother with him, to bother with politics at all.”
They thought of the government as “They.” The only possible route to a clear conscience in politics is to accept political responsibility, either as an active member of the party in power or as an equally active member of the loyal opposition.
—Robert A. Heinlein, Take Back Your Government
If you don’t try to change anything, of course the awful “moderates” stay in charge.
Trying to change thing is exactly what the Uncommitted movement tried to do. And while they failed to move the needle in the 2024 election, in 2028, the Democrats will have to think a lot more about whether they want to keep losing in exchange for supporting genocide.
Remember, it’s always “the most important election ever.” Every election is billed as that. But sometimes you need to be willing to accept a short-term loss in exchange for long-term progress. Myopically focusing on just the election right in front of you is how we got into this mess in the first place.
Kamala losing gave space for someone like Mamdani to win. It’s clear that corporate DNC centrism is a toxic losing brand. If Kamala had won, it is extremely unlikely that Mamdani would have won the NYC primary.
Trying to change thing is exactly what the Uncommitted movement tried to do
Where did I say anything bad about them? It was about the primary and not about the general election.
I actually get your point in theory as you could see elections in a game theory type of setting. The problem is that the last elections have been “the most important election ever” because well… they have gotten increasingly more significant and important. 2016 allowed Trump to shift the Supreme Court long-term and change decades-old consensus. It alone almost got him to do a coup. 2020 could have very well literally enabled that, and 2024 well… just look at everything that is happen. This is not the beginning of fascism, that’s well some steps inside.
I get the theory, and if the opponent was a McCain I could even understand your thought. But if it’s the election of 1930, where every vote counts to defeat the bigger evil, it’s not the time to sit it out for future benefits.
Every election since I could vote (early 2000s) has been the most important.
Why? Because the results built the Supreme Court that curtailed every progressive policy achievement and accelerated our current descent into fascism.
Without GWB you don’t have Roberts or Alito. Without Trump you don’t have Gorsuch, Cavanaugh, or Barrett.
Those fuckers have lifetime appointments. One lost election sets us back decades. The only good time for a protest vote is the primary.
Literal accelerationism. Jesus fucking Christ.
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You know how before the elections we say that it’s not the time to nitpick the Democratic Party because it’s more important to have it win so that the fascist won’t win?
Well, now we are not before elections, which means that now it is the time to nitpick the Democratic Party.
“I was headed right for the tree, but I didn’t slam on my brakes because they make a squeaking sound. I’m paralyzed now, but at least I didn’t have to listen to that damn squeak! See how much better a person I am than you because of my resolve?“
These people…
I feel like a lot of people are doubling down now because the Democrats on the one hand show utter incompetence and unwillingness to fight Fascism in the US and on the other hand keep up their support for Fascism and genocide by Israel.
Everyone understands in their subconcious but many deny in their conciousness that things will not get better without a struggle. So going down the “i did harm reduction, you were all wrong, lalalala” route makes them feel like they did something and helps to not come to terms that they have been strung along by the Democrats for all those years.
Better light myself on fire! That’ll show those Dems!
Yes, the cognitive dissonance is astounding. As are the consequences.
Talk about careful wording lol. Very well done.
“we deserve non-squeaky brakes, and I won’t use the squeaky ones!”
The analogy does not hold up when change can be affected by the individual.
In a pluralistic society, individuals are rarely responsible for any measure of “change“. While we may venerate- and even idolize - such memorable figures in our history, and rightly so, the vast majority of change is both slow and takes place because of the concerted effort of a large amount of people who don’t really take any credit for it.
So, while your statement is, technically, correct, it doesn’t account for how such things typically come to pass. In other words, what you said makes sense logically, but practically, that logic plays a very small role in the reality of the situation because most people act illogically.
“Sure, I could have voted against murdering everyone in the bus, but I’m only one person, so what’s the point?” isn’t exactly the position I would expect. Or, for that matter, respect.
Was this responding to my comment because I don’t see any logical connection?
Hardly surprising
The analogy is of stopping a vehicle by hitting the brakes.
You object that one individual has all the control in the situation.
I point out that if it the brakes were only hit by a vote of everyone in the vehicle, it wouldn’t be less vile to abstain from voting than it would be to abstain from hitting the fucking brakes.
I object that you oversimplify to gross misrepresentation.
Is the squeaking sound in your analogy the genocide of Palestinians?
No, because the squeaking sound would still happen in the case of the crash if it was.
You didn’t avert Palestinian genocide by murdering other minorities. You literally opted to make it worse. Congratulations. The hundreds of thousands of additional dead and displaced Palestinians thank you for your concern.
[nearly-supernatural level of eyeroll]
Me: “I slammed the brakes. I was on the way to a peaceful Tesla protest.”
Them: “How dare you press the brakes when cars are destroying the environment, you genocide apologist! You’re wasting your time, if you do not burn down a Tesla dealership you are morally repugnant you fascist supporter.”
It’s the “violent” nature of the protest and name calling that have turned me off from them. Not necessarily the content of their words. But also, like yes I believe in recycling even though we have bigger problems.
This is such a tired narrative. You guys really want to focus on the leftists when half the country voted for an authoritarian?
Every movement has its radical fringe. Virtue signaling either your ideological purity or your solidarity with the only viable opposition are equally feeble attempts at clinging to a notion of victory in the face of total defeat.
EDIT: I wasn’t expecting this comment to generate discussion but since it did, let me elaborate on what I meant by “total defeat.” The defeat is not an electoral loss, it’s the fact that we have relinquished so much political power that all we have left is voting for one of a set of compromised politicians every few years. It’s a tired argument because it assumes that it’s possible to vote our way out of the mess we’re in, and it simply isn’t. We need to attack the point of production because it’s where the ruling class derives its power. And arguing about our sham elections is getting us nowhere.
Wonder where all those people are? Immediately after the election for several months lemmy was full of people blaming how shitty things turned out on anyone but themselves. “It’s the Democrats fault I didn’t vote even though I know trump is a fascist POS!”
NOBODY thinks the dems are great. They’re fucked up.
But they’re not Alligator Auschwitz fucked up. They’re not screw the country with tariffs fucked up. They’re not ICE Gestapo fucked up.
But that’s not the non-voters fault because this is better than some neo-lib winning.
But they’re not Alligator Auschwitz fucked up.
Do you have any evidence that the next democratic president will close Trump’s new immigration camps? Because they didn’t the last time. They kept all of Trump’s aggressive immigration programs and even expanded them. If history is any guide, the next democratic president will be just as cruel to immigrants as Trump is now. Biden didn’t let up at all from Trump’s cruel treatment of immigrants. Democrats just adopted the Republican immigration polices wholesale.
Do you have any evidence that I won’t win a $60 million dollar lottery prize next week? I play the lottery occasionally…
You’re giving lots of examples of things that Democrats didn’t start, but chose to continue. Which party started those things?
Obviously the Republicans, but we’re not voting republican we’re voting Democrat right? So why the fuck don’t they reverse the policies we hate? Parlimanatarian says we can’t :ccc oh our friends the Republicans won’t vote for it, we have to be bIpArTiSaN
That’s a valid point, but
we’re not voting republican we’re voting Democrat right?
Many people are abstaining instead of voting for either party or a write in.
I don’t like the idea of a 3rd party president without 3rd party representation in the senate/house/local government positions first, but I’d prefer that people vote 3rd party over not voting at all because they don’t like the 2 party system.
I just do not believe a majority of leftists are refusing to vote, while at the same time understanding why they’d be dissilusioned with the “only sane option” that has so clearly demonstrated they do not actually have the will to make the changes they campaign on. Which results in a swing back the other direction by independents giving Republicans power, who WILL actually use any means necessary to put in place their horrible agenda.
Only 73% of the voting aged population is registered. Only 65% of the voting population voted. I’m not sure what the ideological breakdown of non voters is, but I’m positive leftists are in there.
Immediately after the election for several months lemmy was full of people blaming how shitty things turned out on anyone but themselves.
As opposed to this post that is taking accountability for what happened?
The thing you’re complaining about, this post is that thing.
But the Democrats are:
- Bomb kids fucked up
- Torture innocent people fucked up
- Build out the infrastructure for fascism fucked up
- Genocide supporting fucked up
- Refusing to fight against MAGA fucked up
- Taking money from the poor and working class, and giving it to the rich fucked up
- Bragging about how many people they deported fucked up
- Not giving people fair immigration trials fucked up
Some of us think that those things are kind of a big deal. Are Democrats better than Trump? Sure. Is a Neo-lib better than Trump? Sure, but that doesn’t mean that I’m going to vote for a party that openly fights against the things I believe in, like:
- Healthcare for all
- Equal treatment for everyone under the law
- The rich paying their fair share of taxes
- The US to stop bombing innocent people
- Stopping the war machine
- Stop backing a genocide
- Free Education
- Affordible housing
- Fixing the immigration system
Sure, but that doesn’t mean that I’m going to vote for a party that openly fights against the things I believe in
Thanks, the lives of marginalized folk thank you from inside Alligator Auschwitz. I’m so glad you just couldn’t bring yourself to vote against the literal Nazis.
If the Democrat Party continues the way it has, they will look exactly like the current Republican party in the next decade. Republicans will be full puritanical. Supporters of the DNC will still be supporting the lesser evil. The only solution is for intelligent voters to take the stick of fear out of their asses and go full support for better candidates in primaries or other parties. The people who continue to run our two party system will not give up their power.
If the Democrat Party continues the way it has, they will look exactly like the current Republican party in the next decade.
If they see that the majority of the voting population is voting for Republicans, it make sense that Democrats will adopt more Republican-leaning policies. They don’t care about serial non voters. They care about swing voters and their voting base.
It’s magical thinking to assume otherwise. People who don’t want either party are too lazy to organize even a protest vote write-in name.
And how has that been working out? The Democrats keep losing because they keep abandoning their voting base, while trying to pull in Republican voters. Republican voters aren’t generally going to start voting for Democrats, but there’s a giant pile of leftist waiting for a party that actually fights for them. Maybe the Democrats should try appealing to them instead.
Do those giant piles go to the voting booths, or are they pinky promising to do so when the general election comes around, next time?
They do. Check out Mamdani, who had record-breaking voters turn out. Remember FDR? They voted so hard for him, that Congress had to set up term-limits. It turns out that this “Leftists don’t vote meme” is bullshit. Leftists just don’t want to vote for Right-Wingers, which is why they never show up for Democrats.
If the Democrat Party continues the way it has, they will look exactly like the current Republican party in the next decade.
This is exactly the same blinkered view that was peddled in 2000, and in 2010, by useful idiots for the Republican Party. Do you not know how far the Dems have fucking come in the past 30 years, both socially and economically?
Maybe listening to people who think worsening the genocide in Gaza is Left Praxis™ because it hurts Shitlibs like AOC and Bernie aren’t a good resource for American politics?
The only thing I can think of that improved socially is federal recognition of same sex marriage, but that was actually set in motion by state level judicial rulings. I can’t think of any economic improvements.
You mean like supporting unions and forgiving student debt? Or do you not count that because republicans sabotaged it?
I think you mean fighting unions, and failing to deliver on the less-than-bare-minimum that he set out to forgive on student debt. It wasn’t sabatoged, it was because he was too busy boming innocent people, backing a genocide, and writing checks to his rich friends to get things done for the voters.
Just one of the things they say they’ll do for popularity but their ‘big’ donors don’t support, so they compromise or fail heartlessly. Sabotage would require opposition. The two parties have been playing the extortion game far too long.
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https://ontheissues.org/Bill_Clinton.htm
https://ontheissues.org/Kamala_Harris.htm
Feel free to compare and contrast.
But the next Democratic president isn’t going to close that place. Likely they will expand it. That’s what happened with the last Democratic president.
Oh, were you planning on electing Republicans again and backing NIMBY politicians and then being surprised when they act like Republicans and NIMBYs, like when Obama made repeated efforts to close Gitmo?
I’m sure the kids that the US bombed are super grateful that you were so eager to chose genocide over winning an election. I’m so glad you just couldn’t bring yourself to vote against literal child-killers
They’re still being bombed but now Gaza will have a Trump Tower too thanks to people like you.
- Thanks to the party that chose genocide over winning an election
Fixed that for you
Confidently incorrect. Bravo.
What is incorrect about that? The party made it very clear that they wanted to keep sending weapons, instead winning the election.
I’m sure the kids that the US bombed are super grateful that you were so eager to chose genocide over winning an election. I’m so glad you just couldn’t bring yourself to vote against literal child-killers
Don’t worry, I’m sure you know what’s best for Palestinians far more than… [checks notes] Palestinians
Yeah that seems anything but decisive.
Really it reads similar to the disaffected anti-establishment arguments that some folks in the US put forward to defend their support of Trump - with the difference that Palestinians 1) do not vote in US elections and 2) have really good fucking reasons to cling to hope in any kind of change at all.
Not that Trump ever offered that in any way that would help people, but I cannot blame them for grasping at straws. Most seem aware of the fact that US imperialism is inevitable either way.
Ah yes, Truly Enlightened Voters like you realize that Trump having performed Zionist bootlicking above and beyond what even the Republicans, the more Zionist of the two pro-Zionist parties in our society, were willing to do in his last term and promising an even greater expansion of support to the murderous apartheid state, is actually No Difference At All with the Dem candidate backing away from unconditional Zionism.
God, I’m so glad these Both Sides Bad takes are so prevelent here, it would be really awful if it was all cope to avoid the fact that you helped literal Nazis win who have been helping the Nazis in Israel to a far greater degree than the other Zionists.
What the fuck are you talking about.
You don’t vote for everything at once. You vote on what’s on the ballot. Palestine wasn’t on the ballot. Concentration camps, fascism, economic meltdown, removal of the social safety, women’s rights, and the rule of law were.
You decided that you were okay with all that bullshit because of something else unrelated. And look - Israel is acting worse than ever now because Trump doesn’t even pretend to be against genocide.
You chose this, and you should lose sleep over it.
No, I was not OK with all of that bullshit, which is why I voted against it. If you are going to disagree with me, that’s fine. But I’ll start taking you seriously when you stop making up stuff about me.
You just called out people for not voting against the Dems in the comment I was replying to.
It’s easier to keep your talking points consistent when you aren’t a troll who has to keep track of which lies they’re telling in which conversation threads.
Well, I called out people who proudly voted for genocide and bombing children. I wanted the Democrats to fight against “Concentration camps, fascism, economic meltdown, removal of the social safety…” and fight for “…women’s rights, and the rule of law…”, but they weren’t. The Democrats were doing the opposite.
Concentration camps, fascism, economic meltdown, removal of the social safety, women’s rights, and the rule of law were.
Those were all on the ballot if Kamala had won.
Concentration camps, fascism, women’s rights
Yes, those would have been better if Kamala had won.
Economic meltdown, removal of the social safety, rule of law
I’m not convinced those would have been fixed if she would have won, as they were not fixed by any of her Democratic predecessors. The same predecessors that she made every indication she would follow.
You don’t think the last few Dem presidents helped move the economy in the right direction?
The system sucks but you’re never getting any of the things you want from it without the Democratic party. Leftists should be taking over the party instead of abandoning it. Or letting themselves get played into abandoning it by those who want to disempower the left. The system guarantees that we get two parties and we’re not going to take the GOP so the Dems are really it. It sucks but it is what is, you can’t wield the state without first wielding one of the two parties. There is no other realistic path to power under the system.
We’re not going to get the things that we want from the Democratic party. They’ve been overwhelmingly clear that they would rather keep losing elections than give us any of those things. Why would I keep investing in a party that openly and strongly tells me “No, go fuck yourself. We’re gonna keep bombing children” ?
If you want to try and fix the Democrats, then go get em tiger. I have no problems with others trying to fix it from the inside. But I’m not wasting my time with them.
I voted for Harris, am I allowed to be mad that the Democrats are still gung ho about Israeli genocide yet? Or do I need to shout blue no matter who for another few decades?
Not voting and voting for trump were both stupid choices. But attacking people who didn’t vote for trump instead of those who did is fucking bananas and I don’t get the point of this. Are we expecting a resounding vote in 2028 for Harris again is going to fix everything? Come the fuck on.
I voted for Harris, am I allowed to be mad that the Democrats are still gung ho about Israeli genocide yet?
Sure are.
Because you did the right thing to help your country, despite being upset about a single issue.
You are not part of the problem.
Being pissed about Israeli genocide and thinking that it’s okay to welcome in Nazis who promise to intensify the genocide if you feel really strongly that reducing genocide isn’t good enough are two entirely different concepts.
Asspatting the latter is a request for them to play purity politics if we ever get a chance to vote again. And if we dig ourselves out of this fucking hole, the last thing I want to see is for us to jump right back into it because “The Dems aren’t opposing genocide enough! We NEED to let the pro-genocide candidate win and murder a few million extra people to teach the DNC a lesson!”
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People were saying up to a year before the election that they wouldnt vote democrat unless they stopped supporting genocide. Maybe if reductionists like you hadn’t been shouting over them calling them russian trolls and pledging your undying support to the democratic candidate no matter who they are, then they would have seen how it was affecting their polls and pivoted. Instead you continue to prove to them that they can get away with anything. I dont uderstand the obtuse refusal to see that laying down an ultimatum and drawing a line in the sand is the only bargaining power you have, even if you dont intend to follow through with it, it wouldve been worth withholding support from biden and harris as long as possible.
True but it’s a minor point. Even if every single lefty held the line it wouldn’t have made a difference. The people who didn’t vote were mostly disengaged normal people and the blame for that is squarely on the Democrats for sucking absolute shit on purpose because of big money in politics.
Have some perspective, pick better fights with worse people. I personally find it extremely unmoving when the left chastises people over politics so good job emulating one of their worst and least politically effective qualities.
Instead, I humbly suggest you try to inspire a shred of hope among the cynical and apathetic - but deep down actually very cool people of the Earth🌠
