Eh, one of the slower ways to kill a billionaire, but at least it is still killing them.
Its pretty fast really. They’re dead the second their body functions stop. Nobody has ever survived being frozen solid. Not really. Coming back from that is a death sentence.
The idea is that you put the frozen head in a brain scanner and the synapses are still intact so you can emulate them in a computer or specialised android hardware.
This way the rich can become imortal gods as the poor can be made to work 24/7 at 10000x efficiency
Yeah… and it’s a dumb idea. Consciousness is not software.
What I consciousness though?
It’s clearly not hardware, if either an emulated brain can be conscious or just pretends to do so is impossible to prove or disprove.
What I consciousness though?
It’s organic.
if either an emulated brain can be conscious or just pretends to do so is impossible to prove or disprove.
The point is moot - the consciousness of the frozen billionaire is non-existent in either case.
It’s organic
Why? Why could there not be a non-organic consciousness?
Going to take it a step further and say artificial life is just organic life with extra steps.
The concept of robots that continued to evolve post creators is not new to scifi.
In some ways our own body is simply an emergent complex machine of regenerative biodegradable micro hardware.
There maybe could, but it would be a different one from the person. A second consciousness that was copied.
To my knowledge we are nowhere close to being able to actually transfer a consciousness
The only consciousness we have ever encountered is organic in nature - speculation on non-organic forms of consciousness is pretty much esoteric.
Ie, it depends on your religious beliefs.
For real
There’s a whole field of philosophy dealing with that question, there’s no consensus yet, though interesting ideas have surfaced
I don’t think that’s something that will be solved as it’s not something really tangible.
The most simple theory and the one I lean towards is that every time you go to deep sleep you effectively die, and when you wake up (or enter REM sleep) you are effectively a whole new consciousness who just happens to have the memories of the many consciousness who previously inhabited your body. This theory is nice because it solves the teleporter paradox, but doesn’t answer the question if an emulated brain actually thinks or just pretends to think. The so called philosophical zombie.
But also, it’s funny to think that if I truly believed this theory, then I would spend all my money right now and let “whoever inherits my memories” to deal with the consequences.
You don’t know that. Literally, you don’t. Nobody does. This might be your opinion and that’s fine, but stating it as fact is disingenuous
You don’t know that.
I also don’t know whether ghosts exist. Will you go to bat for them, too?
but stating it as fact is disingenuous
Pretending that consciousness is software because movies and videogames portrays it working like software is far more disingenuous, I’d say.
That depends on their definition of software. If software is partly defined as something we can create, and consciousness is something we can’t even fully understand, let alone create, then they are correct.
You will never be able to make a perfect copy of the brain and anything less means you wouldn’t be “you” anymore. Any of these schemes about copying the brain are moot because of that, I think.
Given advanced enough technology making a perfect scan on the brain seems perfectly duable, you’re not breaking any laws of physic that I know off.
“I call myself a millionaire because I might win the lottery someday”
We are legion. We are Bob.
But but software can think now, it’s totally not copying and pasting together random segments it scraped online
Not yet
No, ideally the brain itself (at least) can actually be revived and made to be medically stable. Which assumes the preservation process does not cause too much damage.
(and also it’s vitrification not freezing, though reversing it is still not something that has been done obviously)
I mean sure, some people are fine with a brain scan (and cryo companies might just say that to temper expectations)… but that sounds like idiot talk to me. I say this as someone who has thought about stuff like this for escapism reasons, not that I have any chance of covering even a reservation fee.
You can’t vitrify something as large as a human. This is all people watching too much shitty sci-fi being exploited by con artists.
They made an entire game centred around this concept and why it doesn’t work the way they want it to (it’s also a dang good game in general and perfect pick for Spooktober).
I hoped someone would bring SOMA up.
Could you imagine a Star Trek future where some psycho is trying to revive these racist dead fascist!?
There’s an episode of TNG where they revive 3 people who were on a cryogenic space capsule.
One of them was an entitled wall street trader who was completely out of touch with reality and actually thought he was rich because he thought his stock were still there, and that he would try to order Cap. Picard around thinking the Enterprise was some sort of jet company.
He was constantly dismissed as a rambling old man. Funny episode.
At this point, I’m not sure they still need the poor. Automation will handle all the work.
Unless they want to keep a couple around as novelties to show off.
Or for sex. Probably they’ll keep some of them around for sex. Provided they still have that need.
Few or no cryonicists are billionaires
How did they decompose if they were frozen? Or did this happen as they were thawed and basically just liquified as they warmed up?
The second. Turns out cryo places take a ridiculous amount of energy to keep the corpses at the ‘proper’ temperature, and those running such places often cut corners, and so leave out things like backup generators. The suspension fluids also need refilling periodically, which often doesn’t happen.
Edit: if you want to read the article this post is quoting, you can find it here.
The freezer in Futurama didn’t need any special shit. This is false.
Thanks for the link, that was interesting to read. They link to a “medical report” from one of the cryprofreeze companies, about three people who were transferred from being frozen completely to just having their heads preserved (apparently this is a thing).
It contains such gems as describing said process of decapitating a corpse like this:
The patient was removed to an isolation tent with specially constructed supports, where a rapid conversion to neuropreservation was done using a high speed electric chain saw.
They go into some detaile about how the bodies reacted to being frozen for years and then warmed up again, which is interesting to read (for me at least) and shows that the technology needed to revive these souls is a long long time away (if at all)"
The only real hurdle in the revival process is the fact that we don’t know how to freeze folks while preventing microcellular crystals from forming. Reviving folks after that would simply be a matter of reversing the process.
And finding a way to reverse brain death.
Isn’t the real hurdle that the human body is composed of different materials that have different thermal expansion coefficients, meaning any kind of freezing or thawing will lead to cracks at all scales, even down to the molecular one?
Yeah, humans are large and it’s hard to freeze the entire thing at the same time even with very cold storage. The outside of you freezes before the inside and that’s problematic.
Smaller mammals like rodents have been frozen and thawed successfully while still living but they are way smaller.
Can we just make smaller humans? Would creating a homo floriensis just to send them on distant stars be a unethical?
Let’s do it and they can ponder our choices when they arrive long after our death.
Smaller mammals like rodents have been frozen and thawed successfully while still living but they are way smaller.
Wtf!? Just going to casually drop that in there?
Yeah, some caveats apply but https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryopreservation?wprov=sfla1
Freezing also doesn’t completely eliminate background radiation. You stop or significantly slow down chemical processes, that’s it.
Yeah, they even note in the article that meat in the freezer still eventually goes bad. It’s nothing but junk science.
I guess it’s not like the frozen person will hold you accountable for cutting corners.
No modern Cryonics facility fits this description. They all have perpetual funds, take no energy as it’s liquid nitrogen and not electricity doing the cooling, and I’ve never heard of any “forgetting” to refill. Source? Actually forget it you just wrote complete bullshit lol.
liquid nitrogen and not electricity doing the cooling
that’s not how thermodynamics work. do you think a cryogenic liquid stays at cryogenic temps by itself? even in a storage dewar there’s heat transfer.
Do you think you’re reading a serious comment?
I never underestimate the ignorance of my fellow man.
Me either
sure thing bike powered cryoguy lol
Yes
Strawman. Yes, liquid nitrogen requires energy to create. Cryonics facilities do not usually generate it but instead buy it, it’s very inexpensive and the heat transfer is tiny because dewars are closer to a vacuum and liquid nitrogen is cheap. A human bicycle per person could power most Cryonics facilities indefinitely (yes they do have these on site). They have perpetual funds which the first failed Cryonics attempts did not. They do not cool refrigerant via electricity on site. I abbreviated this explanation because I thought it was obvious but apparently not. My point is the entire structure of modern Cryonics is not anything like what the article depicts, it’s a strawman talking about 50 years ago. Nobody in this thread has the slightest idea how they operate and is just a big misinformation circle jerk unfortunately with dozens of upvotes.
No, I’m not trying to convince anyone “it works!”, literally combatting egregious misinformation including your strawman.
I do not believe that entropy acts in reverse, but I am also highly qualified to understand that statement, I’m going to say top 1% or higher. I wouldn’t usually say it but you questioned my comprehension and I answered it with a (mostly) straight face too.
Cryonics is not anything like what the article depicts, it’s a strawman talking about 50 years ago. Nobody in this thread has the slightest idea how they operate and is just a big misinformation circle jerk unfortunately with dozens of upvotes.
aaaah but you are an expert it seems? where did your expertise come from? genuine query.
A human bicycle could power most Cryonics facilities indefinitely (yes they do have these on site).
would love to see evidence of this.
The liquid nitrogen requirements in a dewar would be about 100W per person, which is within range of a human bike generator. https://cryonics.org/members/cryostats-for-cryogenic-storage/. There’s also pumping the vacuum, it’s within range as well. I edited my statement to say “bike per patient”, I guess you could have interpreted it as “bike per facility”. Alcor mentioned having them “just in case” but it was a while back when they had fewer members and I guess they took down most of their website. I think this is more to make a point, can’t imagine anyone doing that realistically, maybe it makes their loved ones feel better. But if it makes a strawman easier, sure, you can interpret my statement as “people will live forever because bicycle” and say “you don’t understand thermodynamics!!!”. Checkmate.
Source: I am able to read, google and do basic math. Not sure where you read “expert” but that makes me qualified to make this statement, as would be many 6th graders. I’m also good at reflecting sarcasm, aaaah.
The website (google) says (reading) $100/yr, assuming electricity costs $12 cents/kwh and the conversion is efficient, that’s 100 / 0.12 * 1000 / 365 / 24 = 100W (basic math). Evidence: uh, lmgtfy, eyeballs, pemdas?
No energy? Do you understand the laws of thermodynamics?
No, they understand the future, which is better. .ayve get on board, stupid Luddite.
They’re taking a crapshoot chance more likely.
I’ll place my entire life’s savings on them not
Probably a good bet. Cryonicists place the chance of success at ~1% usually.
Strawman. Yes, liquid nitrogen requires energy to create. Cryonics facilities do not usually generate it but instead buy it, it’s very inexpensive. They have perpetual funds which the first failed Cryonics attempts did not. They do not cool refrigerant via electricity on site. I abbreviated this explanation because I thought it was obvious but apparently not. My point is the entire structure of modern Cryonics is not anything like what the article depicts, it’s a strawman talking about 50 years ago.
Curious to know your background in thermodynamics, my education puts me in a good place, maybe top 1% for the “laws of thermodynamics” specifically.
Now I don’t question your ability to understand thermodynamics. But I am super curious what your reading comprehension scores were in school? There are always areas we can continue to improve, you know.
You know nitrogen isnt just ‘magic cold goo’ in its liquid phase, right?
Who am i kidding; of course you don’t!
Edit: love all these kurzwel-landian-assed ‘science nerds’ who read one SciFi novel in the 90s and think theyre science-knower intellectuals, but don’t understand thermodynamics 101 or the refrigeration cycle or other basic shit they should have learned in high school.
Strawman. Yes, liquid nitrogen requires energy to create. Cryonics facilities do not usually generate it but instead buy it, it’s much cheaper than you would think. They have perpetual funds which the first failed Cryonics attempts did not. They do not cool refrigerant via electricity on site. I abbreviated this explanation because I thought it was obvious but apparently not. My point is the entire structure of modern Cryonics is not anything like what the article depicts, it’s a strawman talking about 50 years ago. There is no magic and it’s very unlikely to work but not 0. I would guess 1%.
I’m actually struggling to understand where you got the word “magic” from my description. It’s possible my advanced physics training caused me to abbreviate things that are foundational, like entropy, heat exchange rates of a vacuum (e.g. observed in a Dewar). Are you interpreting something specific I said as incompetence or simply aggressively cherry picking my argument because of your own?
Most cryonicists are quite educated, but they are also fucking nuts so I won’t argue that one lol.
I take it you didn’t bother to read the article.
The screenshot with no link? Well anyways I did, I wish I could have my time back. It’s a strawman pointing to 50 years ago. There are many good arguments and this one is just not. ChatGPT could have done a better job.
Usually I’m into data hoarding but let’s say, this article isn’t worth it’s space to archive even as compressed text lol. There’s more intellectual content on a cereal box.
What? Do you have any idea how liquid nitrogen actually works? No matter how well insulated the storage is, it is still constantly picking up ambient heat which means you need to keep supplying it with liquid nitrogen as it boils off to disapate said heat. Any big facility is going to make their own liquid nitrogen onsite because of the quantities they require. Making liquid nitrogen requires a lot of electricity. Liquid nitrogen is also expensive to store a lot of because it has no liquid state at ambient temp. That means you need refrigerated and pressurized dewars which basically nobody does, or you just fill up big insulated dewars with no active cooling and let the nitrogen perpetually boil.
If one of those facilities loses electricity then it stops making liquid nitrogen and the liquid nitrogen level in the storage tanks will begin to drop. Because of the costs associated with storing large quantities of liquid nitrogen they aren’t going to store enough to last a prolonged outage. When I worked in an electronics plant our bulk tank of liquid nitrogen got filled weekly by a tanker truck and we didn’t even use a fraction of the liquid nitrogen that one of these cryo facilities uses.
And that’s not even talking about that fact that long term cryo preservation of large creatures like humans is complete bunk.
I’ll start with the complete bunk part. Yes, you are correct, it is unscientific. No argument there. But not really “bunk” as most cryonicists place the odds of working at 1%. Bunk implies a positive claim, that’s not very positive.
All modern Cryonics facilities use expensive pressurized dewars. Your statement is so egregiously wrong and foundational I can discard the rest. If you had a test on Cryonics facilities your grade would be an F, not a D-. Sorry. We could not agree on any further point but here’s a bit for you to read into.
Modern cryonics facilities are not large enough to need much liquid nitrogen, can you quote specific amounts in gallons per week? No, you can’t, because you totally made that sentence up or your company used less than a gallon a year. The liquid nitrogen required is cheap and miniscule and it’s covered by a perpetual fund. It’s actually small compared to other upfront costs. Perpetual funds are how the Getty Museum and Benjamin Franklin’s will operate, they have been around for hundreds of years. It’s small enough for a human powered bicycle generator to generate for a single patient (those are onsite but never used before).
It’s certainly possible for an outage but modern Cryonics facilities have seen one in decades. Can you cite proof of your statement of such a failure in the last 30 years? Probably not as it’s not true.
People who pay for cryogenic storage are simps and suckers.
Now that one I won’t argue against lol
Didn’t one of these places recently lose power or go out of business?
Anyway, will all their frozen cell walls popped they probably turn to goo that much faster.
i think that business model is bs, but that should be treated and manslaughter.
given that the whole premise of the business is that they can be revived is kept in appropriate conditions. having the corpses decompose due to negligence is manslaughter. or if not, it means their business is fraudulent.
They’re legally mausoleums or something, and don’t accept living people, so… 🤷
Would be more simple to skip the freezing and go straight to goo
No, no modern Cryonics facility has had this happen. The article is referring to an event decades in the past
You’re really bored. 🤫
I’m not bored at all, a bit overwhelmed in fact.
wasn’t there some girl that froze herself at 25 years old?
*died
Lol fuck.
There are two frozen accidents I recall in which both women survived. One the (twenty-sonething-year-old?) lady was walking home but was getting too cold and couldn’t make it so stopped at a friend’s house but couldn’t make it to the door, or she was knocking & ringing doorbell and nobody answered, something like that. She froze to death in the front yard, all living processes ceased, but her body froze in such a way that when she was found the next day & taken to the hospital, thawed, her bodily processes began to resume and she made a full recovery with no lasting effects from the trauma.
Similar outcome experienced by some other lady who fell through the ice in a frozen lake.
These incidents are not uncommon, but they are not “frozen” accidents as in frozen = turned to ice. They are freezing accidents as in freezing = dying from cold.
Our heart stops at a body temperature of mid 20° C. At this temperature, our brain survives cardiac arrest for several hours instead of 6 min like at 37° C. That’s why the window for reanimation is several hours when your freezing, and why surgeons uses artificial hypothermia during heart surgery, and why no one’s dead until warm and dead.
If a body freezes < 0° C and needs to be actually thawed, the tissue is too damaged to recover.
That’s why they say you ain’t dead til you’re warm and dead
There is a large difference between “freezing to death” in common language and being cryogenically stored (frozen solid). The lowest core body temperature on record of someone surviving an event like that with no deficits is slightly over 50F/11C.
Frozen cells get torn apart from ice crystals.
no no there was some girl that froze herself in one of these cryo chamber bullshit at a very young age. she was kinda famous until the day she froze herself. People were asking her “why she was doing this” all the time.
Oh that’s crazy, look it up and Link it for us. If she was famous, wonder why I haven’t heard about it, I’m interested. Did she survive, or no?
I’ll try to look for it but I doubt I’ll find it.
Forbidden jungle juice
Only if you’re not brave enough.
Since we can now almost clone from skin cells. Almost. Maybe they can peddle that to people who were unmarried? Like give us a sample when you’re 21, we’ll freeze your pinki, then just work until you’re dead! We’ll find you a match and make you some kids later when we can.
How about folks just come to terms with death instead? Yeah, you’re not special, you’re gonna die too. Deal with it and move on.
And by move on we mean die
Yes but can I have their money? I can’t promise I’ll try to revive them. But I’ll take the money and dispose of… Actually I don’t need any body parts, just the money.
We could flog the body to the guys that test explosives. This happened to someone who thought they were donating a body to medical research.
Rich cunt: “Im going to live forever!!!”
20 years later…
Poor cunt, scraping the rich cunts decomposing oozey brain matter off the bottom of the capsule:
