The 193-member world body approved [September 13] a nonbinding resolution endorsing the “New York Declaration,” which sets out a phased plan to end the nearly 80-year conflict. The vote was 142-10 with 12 abstentions.
so if you recognise a two state solution then you recognise palestine’s right to defend itself, right? - padme
So the UN is gonna execute Netanyahu and his entire cabinet? And oversee the Israli government for the foreseeable future until the state of Palestine is restored and armed equally with Isreal?
That’s what’s required to make this right
There’s basically no way two-state will work anymore, right?
Maybe a few decades ago. But even if Bibi was magically removed for the most pro-Palestine government possible, Israel’s war crimes were recognized, and Palestine was rebuilt from rubble with massive aid, it feels like things are ‘written into a corner’ and there is just too much radicalization and spilled blood for two hypothetical states to leave each other alone.
And being under the same state will remove that tension?
No.
I’m not really sure what a good solution is anymore. We hold Israel severely accountable (which is apparently impossible :/), but then what?
The most plausible path forward I see is the Native American model from the USA.
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Genocide and ethnically cleanse the target population into progressively smaller reservations. (Israel is here)
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Sign treaties recognizing the target population as a sovereign entity existing within the borders and legal framework of the parent nation.
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targeted population demilitarized. It’s people become increasingly integrated into the parent nation.
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Civil rights movement for members of the targeted population within the parent nation.
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Develop an esoteric field of law clarifying what “sovereign entity existing within the borders and legal framework of the parent nation” even means.
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Gradually chip away at the targeted population through a combination of progressively narrowing the scope of law covered in (5), and the natural integration of the targeted population into the host population (US is here)
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Two Palestines seems like a lot, but okay
I used to say shit like this out of protest, but people took be literally and villainized me. Glad people recognize a parody nowadays.
I am ashkenazi jewish and i think if the “israelis” want to stay in the holy land, they should be given palestinian citizenship and learn to live alongside their literal cousins. Modern israel is a settler colonial project propped up by the american military industrial compelx and as such will never be an equitable solution.
I just realized this is uplifting news. Of all the things, who is this delusional to think this is actually good news? They are just mucking around and doing nothing. The UN is dead in my eyes.
Great! I’m sure all 0 living Palestinians remaining will be glad to hear that…
L. One state solution or nothing. These fucking fools
one state solution
There is already a two state solution. It’s what is happening currently and Israel has systematically chipped away at it for 75 years. They will not stop until they have erased any possibility of a Palestinian state. The solution is one state where everyone has equal rights.
I don’t think either side wants that tbh
They have been trying the same shit with Serbia and Albania. Instead of letting us agree on anything, they encourage Albanians to lash out because “we are the bad guys”. We could split Kosovo on the Serbian inhabited side and Albanian. But nooo, they feel entitled to an ethnic cleansing, as if that’s how it’s supposed to work.
We could wipe them off the map before the UN could even react.
Ah yes, the approach that’s failing since 80 years surely going to work this time.
It was always going to be a one-state solution. I’d hoped that state would be a pluralistic home for the Israelis and Palestinians, but they’re closer than ever to slamming the door tight on a single ethnostate for Jews, with not so much as a disputed territory beside.
a pluralistic home for the Israelis and Palestinians
Would be a welcome change if diplomatic efforts at least started to attempt a different approach such as this instead of sticking to the same formula that fails since eight decades.
The problem is that it’s a non-starter for the Israelis, who want a formal Jewish ethnostate, not a pluralistic society where they happen to have good representation. Israel is a modern society and despite their best efforts, their birth rate is declining just like every other modern nation. This is a long term problem for them, being massively outnumbered by Muslims in the surrounding region, and having already 2 million Arabs living in Israel, or 20% of the nation. They fear they will fall behind demographically and their grand project will become just another Islamofacist state over time.
And… I guess this is why American conservatism is such an ally?
The “displacement” of ‘traditional’ American Christians (subtext: white) is viewed as an existential issue, and I guess it’s because the birth rates+immigration of other groups is so much higher. This is why they want to end birthright citizenship, clamp down immigration and such, yet still focus on boosting birth rates; its viewed as existential cultural displacement.
Same as some Israelis feel I guess. Do nothing, and Muslims will crowd out Jews. I never really thought about that.
Being afraid of religions or races mixing is, of course, beyond bonkers. I’m ashamed Americans are so afraid of their country turning an ambiguous brown, like its some scary future.
But I guess I see the link more clearly than I did before. MAGA’s support of Israel otherwise feels kinda weird given their antisemetic undercurrents.
Well they might be antisemitic but they hate Arabs too, and with a much less complicated, pure and dehumanizing hatred. At least Jewish people can be mistaken for white.
Plus, if you hate Jews, don’t you want them to have their own country to fuck off to? And if they destabilize and oppress the Arab world in the process? Win-win.
Jewish interests are also just better mobilized in the US. They have a good story as our best ally in a fucked region, and they’ve succeeded in telling that story. As far back as Abraham Lincoln there has also been compassion for the Jewish people and a desire to see them in a secure homeland. But at this point that seems to be a distant third or fourth in terms of motivations to support Israel.
I think you underestimate hardcore MAGA’s antisemitism, lol. And slightly overestimate the racism (which is more ‘oldschool’)
You are not wrong about Jewish mobilization.
There’s just different stories told to different people, I think. Evangelical purists get the ‘cultural contamination’ story to sympathize with (as that’s what they want in the US). Old folks get the decades-old broadcast TV version of Israel. MAGA and oldschool Republicans get the radical islam angle, hardcore MAGA gets a kind of altered reality where Trump is actually the anti-interventionists here (as they still hate Israel), he’s just working towards that, somehow.
I really think most of the branding isn’t ‘brown people.’ Even though there is a lot of islamophobia in the US, one of MAGA’s core tenants is technically non-interventionalism, and most appeals to racism aren’t so explicit.
There’s just different stories told to different people, I think.
Yeah that’s a smart take. Most things work that way.
one of MAGA’s core tenants is technically non-interventionalism
(friendly spell check: you mean tenet, not tenant)
I agree this is supposedly one of their tenets but it’s one they seem very idiosyncratic about. They cry non-intervention when they don’t care about something, but seem happy to call for intervention when they do. Maybe this isn’t cognitive dissonance but just having a high bar for intervention. If their bar criteria were clear, it would be easier to say so.
IIRC, the UN has held this same vote (with the same result) on a regular basis for decades. This isn’t a new development.
No country can claim to back up a two state solution while providing zero concrete measures if israel refuse to do it
Which they will absolutely refuse to do
for one thing, Saudi Arabia is bribing the US, though it’s questionable whether that’d work
Qatar bribed trump then allowed israel to bomb qatar
And Qatar is kinda pissed about that, to be fair. Lack of an apology (as Trump is psychologically incapable of) is not going to help either.
They are kinda pissed then what?
Shrug.
Qatar has been quite the friendly mediator though. Any pretense of Trump’s ‘wins’ in the Middle East start to disappear if they simply don’t do that anymore.
Israel and the usa don’t want mediation they want to exterminate palestinians from palestine. I am pretty sure they would be happy if qatar stop doing it so they could day look Qatar is the one who no longer want peace and returning the hostages
This requires Israel removing Netanyahu and his far right alliance from power, and Palestine building a stable elected government.
Netanyahu might be removed in the next election because Israelis are fed up with his military aggression that has failed to eliminate Hamas or free the remaining hostages. This is an election year.
The Palestinian authority has to be completely dismantled and rebuilt with new elections and authority to properly govern. Abbas is about to enter the 21st year of his 4 year term.
He was removed in 2022 and barely got back in the last election (Current gov was elected with 49.5% of the voters). Plus for the last 2 years, the polls show the gov parties don’t have nearly enough support to get reelected.
Problem is there’s a high chance they’ll interfere with the elections.And this will have to come with some measures or support for deradicalized education and support for joint Palestinian-Israeli organizations that bring people together like Standing Together, Combatants for Peace, etc.
There is no two-state solution on stolen land.
I doubt mass deporting Israeli Jews will gain much support either, and without that you’d just end up with Jim Crow—the US racial discrimination in spite of the anti-slavery Civil War—where the Israeli majority will just democratically tyrannize the Palestinians like they’re doing right now, just without the bombs.
I don’t think there’d be a Jewish majority if Palestinian refugees are granted the right to return from Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, etc.
Also, a lot of Jewish people would outright refuse to live in decolonized Palestine. They’d rather live in Europe than in a country they are forced to share with Palestinians. Without apartheid and a Jewish ethnostate, the Middle East loses a lot of its appeal.
Especially when a lot of them lose their property because it’s fucking stolen.
Did you know that is the reason my country (Iran) voted no to this resolution?
because Iran backs one state that everyone lives in it and refugees have come back.
that seems like a big risk to take. alternatively palestinian refugees could choose to just not return because of all the recent horrors and shaky stability. plus, jim crow dominated even black-majority areas.
I think Palestinians have demonstrated over and over that they are willing to stay on the land even at the risk of their own lives.
Israelis, meanwhile, flee the country whenever things get difficult. Their population growth is negative at the moment.
Also, Jim Crow and the defeat of Reconstruction happened because slave owners weren’t imprisoned for their crimes or stripped of their wealth and/or property. They lost their slaves, they didn’t lose their land or even their social or political power. They had business relations and could recover. We don’t have to make that mistake again. Every war criminal goes to prison and pays reparations, every person on stolen land gets their land seized, then you won’t have a similar repeat of Jim Crow.
I think Palestinians have demonstrated over and over that they are willing to stay on the land even at the risk of their own lives.
Not the ones that have fled and you’re counting on to come back.
We repeated Jim Crow in German denazification and Japanese deimperialism-ing, all for the same reason: politicians lost interest. I don’t see why that would change enough to become a guarantee.
Denazification worked, what are you talking about?
The modern German government is very good at going against Nazis, but that is not because of Denazification, which turned into just filing paperwork.
Very soon after the program started, due to the emergence of the Cold War, the western powers and the United States in particular began to lose interest in the program, somewhat mirroring the Reverse Course in American-occupied Japan. Denazification was carried out in an increasingly lenient and lukewarm way until being officially abolished in 1951. The American government soon came to view the program as ineffective and counterproductive. Additionally, the program was hugely unpopular in West Germany, where many Nazis maintained positions of power. Denazification was opposed by the new West German government of Konrad Adenauer,[4] who declared that ending the process was necessary for West German rearmament.[5]
Again, because the caseload was impossibly large, the German tribunals began to look for ways to speed up the process. Unless their crimes were serious, members of the Nazi Party born after 1919 were exempted on the grounds that they had been brainwashed. Disabled veterans were also exempted. To avoid the necessity of a slow trial in open court, which was required for those belonging to the most serious categories, more than 90% of cases were judged not to belong to the serious categories and therefore were dealt with more quickly.[3]: 283
More “efficiencies” followed. The tribunals accepted statements from other people regarding the accused’s involvement in Nazism. These statements earned the nickname of Persilscheine, after advertisements for the laundry and whitening detergent Persil.[13] There was corruption in the system, with Nazis buying and selling denazification certificates on the black market. Nazis who were found guilty were often punished with fines assessed in Reichsmarks, which had become nearly worthless.[3]: 290 While the military government was aware of the fines’ nominal cost, requiring a hearing for each case prevented mass acquittals of many individuals.[9] In Bavaria, the Denazification Minister, Anton Pfeiffer, bridled under the “victor’s justice”, and presided over a system that reinstated 75% of officials the Americans had dismissed and reclassified 60% of senior Nazis.[3]: 284 The denazification process lost a great deal of credibility, and there was often local hostility against Germans who helped administer the tribunals. Threats and even violence against tribunal members had become fairly commonplace.[3]: 285-288
It became the anti-Nazism force it is today due to the 60s Vergangenheitsbewältigung movement and popular programming bringing the issues to the forefront, such as the TV series that popularized the term “Holocaust”.
We can’t rely on a similar stroke of luck to have the Israeli culture just confront itself, too.
It’s so surreal this is referred to as the New York Declaration but the US votes against it. I’m sure there’s history there, but I just see the irony on the surface.
Semi-serious alternative. Weird and crazy. China Mieville’s The City & the City… Could it work here?
