I saw that comment of yours about me not replying before, I just stopped caring before I was able to track it down since Piefed doesn’t have very good thread-navigation ability in big threads yet.

I was wrong about PugJesus being drama-free. It seems like some aggressively wrong people have baited him into extensive slap-fights about politics, and he may even have moderated some people from time to time about it. I said as much, the instant someone pointed it out to me, and then I moved on.

I don’t think him caring about politics is a sin, whichever side he’s on.

Was there anything else I was proven wrong about? If you want to bring it up, I’d be happy to address it.

Yes, I was pointing out your hypocrisy, the one that you’re still very clearly showing, where you use the same things that you’re poking at me with, that you just protected PJ for doing.

What?

This whole conversation is turning very stupid. Talking about politics is great. Insulting other people directly or making up things they didn’t do is not. That’s true on all sides, in my opinion.

Me pointing out your hypocrisy in suddenly freaking out about PJ talking about politics and that meaning he’s an always-online weirdo doesn’t mean all of a sudden I am being hypocritical about it.

Honestly, I just don’t feel like being in this conversation any more, it feels like you have more energy to try to “win” it and care more about it than I do. I said what I had to say.

He claims there’s a Russian genocide. I point out that the ICJ did not find convincing evidence that Russia was committing a genocide in Ukraine where they did find some semblance of that in Palestine. He immediately just tells me I’m parroting Russian propaganda and that I’m a Nazi. I asked for a source and he says that I’m sealioing.

I can literally look down the thread and see the sources he’s citing to you. They are pretty comprehensive. I tried to get involved in the same conversation with you, I think I got bored of the conversation before my comment posted, all I can say is that it’s completely stupid (and absolutely on-brand for lemmy.ml) to claim that someone who says there IS genocide in Ukraine somehow means they’re Zionist or pro-Western, or saying there is NOT genocide in Gaza. Putin’s ICC warrant literally listed child deportation as the primary crime. There is also genocide in Gaza, it’s a lot more unambiguous there than in Ukraine, but they are both happening.

Also:

https://lemmy.world/search?q=sealioning&type=All&listingType=All&creatorId=1252800&page=1&sort=TopAll

https://lemmy.world/search?q=sealion&type=All&listingType=All&creatorId=1252800&page=1&sort=TopAll

https://lemmy.world/post/33270073/18378824

HOLY God

All I can picture is two people in a Will Farrel movie or something just aggressively slap-fighting overhand at each other while leaning their faces away and grimacing. I think I wasted time taking you seriously and trying to respond to what you were saying lol.

If PJ wants to talk with you, he’s welcome to it, I think I’ve said as much as I plan to at this point.

https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/u/UniversalMonk?page=1&sort=New&view=Comments

Pretty much all of the bottom section of that page is UM getting involved in the drama of this particular “anti-AI troll.” He’s getting involved on the correct side, but the point is he is certainly involved.

Technically the UN report only said that people who invaded on October 7th committed widespread sexual violence. They stopped short of saying whether or not it was Hamas (since a lot of people who were not Hamas also took part in the invasion and there was no real way to know who it was that did any particular thing.)

Ooh, you’re gonna bust out a genetic fallacy. We’re gonna start with the fallacious arguments already?

Okay, fair enough. Let me click on your profile and see how anti-political you are in general, so I can be sure not to judge you because of your instance.

Oh. That was quick lol. I didn’t even have to read.

Oh, so I’m a loser for spending any time looking at this

Correct. Spending extensive time criticizing some other user for some kind of imagined sin, through a lens of purely “how can I insult this person and come up with mischaracterizations or framings of real things they did that make them look as bad as possible, or else just making up total bullshit that would have been bad if they’d done it,” is loser behavior. Yes.

but he’s not a loser for talking a bunch of shit about politics that he does not understand and cannot take any criticism for

Uhhhhh

Really trying not to reach for the genetic fallacy here lol

Okay. My main point was that, caring about politics and being impassioned about wanting to say your thing and stick up for your viewpoint, also wanting to attack the perceived opposite viewpoint, is more than anything the single defining characteristic of a lot of communities on Lemmy. I’ll say it that way. To me, that’s a good thing. I was actually really happy when I came here originally and found tankies and anarchists. It speaks to (a) people who care about politics, which speaking as a terminally online weirdo I really like (b) a diversity of viewpoints. It’s a good thing. Now you’re trying to turn it around into because his viewpoint is one you don’t agree with, he’s all of a sudden a big doo doo head because he cares about it enough to argue about it… while, presumably, caring so much about it yourself that you get impassioned and start typing all heated-up about it if someone disagrees with you.

To me, arguing about politics and having strong opinions about it is fine. It is one of the defining features of Lemmy. It sounds like you’re all of a sudden only deciding that it’s this stupid loser weirdo behavior because he has a different viewpoint than you, and because you can’t handle that, you have to try to spin around in any direction you can to find something to use to attack him with. Instead of just debating with him on the merits of whatever it is (or, alternatively, just leaving it alone like a more normal person).

How’d I do at avoiding the fallacy?

Man, I gotta go make my own little whiny community on pifed, so then maybe the great Philip the Bucket won’t see me as such a loser.

No need! Your instance will happily ban anyone who disagrees with you too loudly, so you don’t need to, the whiny little community is already created for you.

Oh shit I blew it at the end lol

They’re the real victims here. After all, someone ambushed them and started talking about politics, which they have clearly specified in their profiles as something they don’t consent to speaking or hearing about.

Don’t even get me started on the idea of someone doing moderation about a political topic. On Lemmy.

Cool! Now accuse him of caring way too much about politics, and getting in heated debates about it like a LOSER, speaking as you are from your lemmy.ml address. That’ll make perfect sense too.

Abusive is when people stack up two hundred and thirteen comments freaking out about what a terrible person you are and insulting you personally, and you start replying to them

It’s unfortunate you’re unable to view nuance.

Lol

Okey dokey

It’s hilarious to me that this whole community of people is having a days-long freakout about what a big deal it is that PugJesus commits this multitude of sins (which have gradually reduced in scope from “abusive” “transphobic” “zionist” whatever else into “he’s a liberal” (allegedly) “he argues about politics and I think that shouldn’t be allowed apparently”)… while also accusing him of caring way too much and being a loser therefore.

Y’all should follow your own advice, and get a life and stop freaking out about what some other person on Lemmy did.

he tends to be a loudmouth radlib

Okay, so now we’ve got “loser,” “twat,” “loudmouth,” has a psychological disorder, “zio,” mental issues, the whole nine yards.

And, somehow, that’s not abusive. PJ giving downvotes and arguing about politics, though, is.

Good to know.

Even beyond the transparent transphobic trolling they were displaying in the first place, even after Ada got reports that they were actively encouraging other users to harm themselves and other objectively rule-breaking behavior, she was still going to bat for them and refusing to take any action (and still taking action against anyone who criticized them), and basically explained that it was because she felt bad that they were getting so much abuse so she was willing to overlook their misbehavior. Eventually, they did something to Ada, and at that point, she suddenly realized they were bad, and evicted them.

Everybody makes mistakes and misjudgements. It’s fine. But I feel like Ada has probably experienced things in her life that make it feel like pronouns are the most important thing, for example more important even than kicking out an obvious troll or making a safe space for queer people who are looking for a place to be but don’t 100% agree with or obey her stance on certain things. I think it makes her susceptible to viewing every situation through that singular lens, and thinking anyone viewing it through any other lens at all must be being evil on purpose (and then going on the attack against them). Q.v., comments elsewhere in this thread.

I have no idea. I tried to talk sense into her elsewhere in these comments, got nowhere, and oh well.

So many people are thin skinned and have nothing better to do than to spend their OWN FREE TIME making other people less happy. Imagine instead of having fun or relaxing or playing a game or going outside or hanging with friends … you stomp on other people because they have a differing opinion or said something you didn’t like.

Thank you! Yeah, I 100% agree with all of this.

This person should not be a mod. This person has a miserable life.

Wait… do you mean PugJesus, or the person that banned him? I was 100% on board when I interpreted it as “the person that banned him,” yes.

This thread seems 100% full of people steaming up fake drama as enthusiastically as they possibly can, while also, accusing PJ of stirring up drama and apparently saying he should be banned for it.

of course, it didn’t actually say what you claim it did

I’m shocked

I’m really not trying to get drawn into giving this whole nonsense more energy than it deserves, but it is absolutely wild to me that it’s so common within this thread to think:

• PugJesus downvotes, gets mad about politics: WAR CRIMES
• People call PugJesus direct personal insults or make up literal nonsense to accuse him of to stir drama, also get mad about politics: Fine, all is well

Like if you’re starting from first principles and picking the one that should be complained about I know which one I would pick.

Yeah. The whole thing is stupid. I’m moderately confident that this is either:

1. People ganging up as a very organized effort to try to bully you out of the space as they did FlyingSquid, when you (I think with every righteous reason) decide this bullshit is unpleasant and unfair and you don’t feel like putting up with it anymore. I’ve already semi-abandoned the political spaces on lemmy.world, not even because I was getting bullied with any level of success, but just because the overall flavor of the interaction is so toxic and fact-free.
2. People who are just operating on pure tribalism. It’s fine for them to accuse you of all kinds of stuff you objectively didn’t do, call you a twat and a loser, all kinds of stuff. It’s not fair for you to argue about politics or downvote people, those are evidence of toxicity and sins. Because they’re on the “right” team and you’re on the “neoliberal enemy” team, so they can do what they want, you can’t. Reminiscent of a popular political viewpoint in the US…

Honestly, I wouldn’t even stress about it. I get the impulse to try to defend yourself vigorously from this stuff but they’re not going to listen to anything sensible anyway, and they’ll be able to cherry pick instances of you getting upset to use later as proof that you’re some kind of monster. If you want my advice about how to look at it.

Okay, so something totally different than what you said lol.

You’re welcome to dig up the actual statements and show them to me, to shed some more light. If you don’t feel like doing that, then I don’t feel like doing it on your behalf and we can conclude things there.

When did he say that? Are you sure he didn’t say some totally different and more sensible thing that you’re choosing to wildly exaggerate into that?

I can actually pretty much guarantee that that’s not what he said. I guess I missed some LW politics community drama that he was involved with, so sure maybe my side was wrong initially, but I’m pretty confident that particularly the second part of that is just some kind of trumped-up misinterpretation of what he actually said.

That’s very clearly a troll trying to make anyone who’s against .ml and friends look bad. I can’t tell if the cartoonish over-the-top way they’re doing it is a mistake, because a more subtle believable approach would have stirred the pot more effectively, or a wise decision because people are so simple-minded that they’ll take even that at face value.

Do you think this creates a good image for piefed and detractors of the ‘tankie troika’

I think it creates a bad image, I think that’s why they are doing it.

There’s a reason why, in a criminal trial, when they’re trying to figure out what actually happened, they don’t put the defendant in the most vulnerable situation in the world and then get them in to sit in front of 300 of the worst people in the world and have them take turns with 5 minutes each of yelling at her and trying to twist up the truth. I’m not hopeful about it either, but who knows.

The other option is that they bring her in and make it clear that she better say it was always Bill Clinton, Obama, Hilary Clinton, James Comey…

What? Trump? No, he was never involved, why do you ask?