You can find unhinged crazies on both sides of just about any argument. It shouldn’t really affect what you think of the subject matter at hand anyway tbh.
and if that were all that was happening, maybe, maybe it’d be reasonable… but trans people are being vilified for simply existing… the “debate” isn’t in good faith from 1 side to start with, so how are we meant to discuss real issues if the position of 1 side is extermination?
It’s not about them existing. More about women’s changing rooms, bathrooms, sports teams, etc. As well as punishing other people for not regarding trans women as women. It should be pretty clear cut that we shouldn’t be exterminating trans people. I have not met anyone who held that opinion at all.
that’s what it’s turned into though… the UK supreme court just basically ruled that trans people don’t exist, and the US has banned gender markers on passports that don’t match your birth certificate, as well as all the horrible things happening in florida and texas
women’s changing rooms, bathrooms
there’s a few things to unpack there…
first, if you believe trans people should be allowed to exist, then there are trans men that look wayyyyyy more masc than most men do so you’re forcing a bearded, muscly dude to use the women’s bathroom: not exactly what anyone wants if when presenting good faith arguments
second, what’s the issue this causes? lesbians and gay men already exist, and are allowed into the bathrooms of the gender they’re sexually attracted to and it doesn’t cause an issue
third, it’s an invented problem… trans people have been going into the bathrooms they feel like using for quite some time and have never caused issues until it started to become a hot topic, and the people causing issues were the people trying to yell at trans people and instead started yelling at women who “looked manly”. trans people don’t want to cause waves - they want to blend in…
as for men who identify as men going into women’s bathrooms to be pervs, well, that’s easy - we already have laws against that and they were working fine
sports teams
sure, that one’s less clear cut when athletes haven’t taken steps to affirm their gender
but again it hasn’t really been a problem: men tend not to want to say they’re women, take estrogen, and have surgery on their cock and balls (a phalloplasty, which costs $20k-$50k) to beat women at sports (or to enter the women’s bathroom to be a perv)
and for kids sports - a category of humans who are not given surgery despite what some elements in the debate would have people believe - gender is irrelevant until puberty, and afaik the standard treatment for trans kids is puberty blockers, which are entirely reversible and essentially make the issue of male muscle bulk irrelevant too (again, these entirely reversible, safe medicines designed to give people more time to explore their gender identity with an adult brain have been banned in several places across the US - a move that is only about hurting people or ignorance and erasing trans existence)
The UK supreme court hasn’t eroded any employment protections though, nevermind exterminating people like you’re making it out to be. It’s just policy change. I don’t know why trans people have to use gendered bathrooms so bad. They could just use disabled ones which are basically provided 99% of the time and legally have to be, and crisis averted.
As with women’s sports, some would argue that it’s still an unfair advantage.
Gender markers on passports may make sense due to other countries having different policies on whether or not they recognise transgender people.
You can find unhinged crazies on both sides of just about any argument. It shouldn’t really affect what you think of the subject matter at hand anyway tbh.
Makes it hard to figure out who to listen to tbh.
the only argument that matters: let people live their lives however they like as long as it doesn’t impact anyone else
trans rights fit this absolutely perfectly
That’s fair, but the debate is now about impacting everyone else
but how are trans people impacting anyone else?
and if that were all that was happening, maybe, maybe it’d be reasonable… but trans people are being vilified for simply existing… the “debate” isn’t in good faith from 1 side to start with, so how are we meant to discuss real issues if the position of 1 side is extermination?
It’s not about them existing. More about women’s changing rooms, bathrooms, sports teams, etc. As well as punishing other people for not regarding trans women as women. It should be pretty clear cut that we shouldn’t be exterminating trans people. I have not met anyone who held that opinion at all.
that’s what it’s turned into though… the UK supreme court just basically ruled that trans people don’t exist, and the US has banned gender markers on passports that don’t match your birth certificate, as well as all the horrible things happening in florida and texas
there’s a few things to unpack there…
first, if you believe trans people should be allowed to exist, then there are trans men that look wayyyyyy more masc than most men do so you’re forcing a bearded, muscly dude to use the women’s bathroom: not exactly what anyone wants if when presenting good faith arguments
second, what’s the issue this causes? lesbians and gay men already exist, and are allowed into the bathrooms of the gender they’re sexually attracted to and it doesn’t cause an issue
third, it’s an invented problem… trans people have been going into the bathrooms they feel like using for quite some time and have never caused issues until it started to become a hot topic, and the people causing issues were the people trying to yell at trans people and instead started yelling at women who “looked manly”. trans people don’t want to cause waves - they want to blend in…
as for men who identify as men going into women’s bathrooms to be pervs, well, that’s easy - we already have laws against that and they were working fine
sure, that one’s less clear cut when athletes haven’t taken steps to affirm their gender
but again it hasn’t really been a problem: men tend not to want to say they’re women, take estrogen, and have surgery on their cock and balls (a phalloplasty, which costs $20k-$50k) to beat women at sports (or to enter the women’s bathroom to be a perv)
and for kids sports - a category of humans who are not given surgery despite what some elements in the debate would have people believe - gender is irrelevant until puberty, and afaik the standard treatment for trans kids is puberty blockers, which are entirely reversible and essentially make the issue of male muscle bulk irrelevant too (again, these entirely reversible, safe medicines designed to give people more time to explore their gender identity with an adult brain have been banned in several places across the US - a move that is only about hurting people or ignorance and erasing trans existence)
The UK supreme court hasn’t eroded any employment protections though, nevermind exterminating people like you’re making it out to be. It’s just policy change. I don’t know why trans people have to use gendered bathrooms so bad. They could just use disabled ones which are basically provided 99% of the time and legally have to be, and crisis averted.
As with women’s sports, some would argue that it’s still an unfair advantage.
Gender markers on passports may make sense due to other countries having different policies on whether or not they recognise transgender people.
Listen to the real arguments and ignore the crazies?
Who have the real arguments and who are the crazies
Real arguments have substance, are self-consistent, and start from reasonable assumptions.