cross-posted from: https://sh.itjust.works/post/36418433
With surveys reporting that an increasing number of young men are subscribing to these beliefs, the number of women finding that their partners share the misogynistic views espoused by the likes of Andrew Tate is also on the rise. Research from anti-fascism organisation Hope Not Hate, which polled about 2,000 people across the UK aged 16 to 24, discovered that 41% of young men support Tate versus just 12% of young women.
“Numbers are growing, with wives worried about their husbands and partners becoming radicalised,” says Nigel Bromage, a reformed neo-Nazi who is now the director of Exit Hate Trust, a charity that helps people who want to leave the far right.
“Wives or partners become really worried about the impact on their family, especially those with young children, as they fear they will be influenced by extremism and racism.”
I don’t care what excuses you want to pull out of your ass about the absolute horror for young men growing up in a world where women aren’t just sex objects and kitchen appliances. If you support and cling to the words of a known sex trafficker and rapist like Andrew Tate, you are a complete and utter piece of shit. And any pathetic excuse about loneliness or feeling left behind goes right out the window there. It’s like men are on a mission to reinforce and prove all of the negative stereotypes right. Fuck these pieces of shit, I wouldn’t waste my piss on them if they were burning alive.
Pretty sure a lot of that guy’s audience is teenage boys.
There’s something he is speaking towards that resonates. This needs to be addressed with open mind and open heart. Calling them all pieces of shit and the other flavorful language you are using only serves to further entrench them in their beliefs.
Men and boys have real and genuine problems that need to be acknowledged and addressed. Some of these problems are perceived problems, others are factual and documented and proven.
I don’t think your strategy will be very successful.
I know this kind of attitude can feel righteous and satisfying. But, it’s exactly the kind of attitude that drives people towards pieces of shit like Tate. I’m not saying you have to bend over and make assholes feel welcome, but having a little empathy can go a long way. Pushing them away so aggressively just contributes to a bad feedback loop.
The whole reason the manosphere is easy to get into is because it is, on the surface, one of the most welcoming and validating spaces for men to be in. Thanks for giving attention to that with your comment.
The manosphere is “welcoming” the same way an abusive partner is “welcoming”, and both are for the same reason.
Abusers are often very charismatic and make you feel really good at first It’s how they can keep people around for years and years.
Nah, that’s not it. Manosphere assholes offer easy and satisfying answer to all the problem, and the solution they offer doesn’t require anyone to do hard work, but instead gives the sensation of being right and cool.
That’s the reason they attract people, not the uncaring left, not the smugness of righteous comments on the internet, ot the evilness of women.The left is often extremely hostile and bitter towards men. A lot of these people grew up watching men getting portrayed as the source of all that’s bad in the world on social media. An adult may be able to separate themselves from that kind of language, but I doubt that children can.
I’m sorry, but it absolutely does not help that we’ve intentionally created double standards where it’s fine to trash entire groups of people as long as they’re in the majority. It accomplishes nothing except pushing potential allies away into the arms of people who choose to accept them instead of constantly rejecting them.
The left talks a big game about inclusion and fairness, but its online spaces don’t reflect that in the slightest. These spaces are often just an excuse for some traumatized people to bully others who they perceive as having harmed them. We never should have allowed this behavior and it’s incredible how much damage it’s done to the movement over the last 10-15 years.
Yeah, I read this first thing in the morning and replied before even checking what community it is. Probably should’ve deleted this but also, maybe it’s a good discussion to have around here.
I know that you’re right but it just feels hopeless. You say that I should have empathy but honestly what I worry about the most is that the people we’re talking about here have no empathy of their own. Because I can’t help but wonder, don’t these kids have mothers and sisters that they look at and at least feel a little bit bad about the circles they spend time in and the ideology they believe in? It’s a strange mix of disgust and despair that I feel about this. Because I feel like trying to appeal to the good nature of mother’s sons that listen to rapists in the first place is a lost cause.
But I could just be bitter. And facing my own gender wars internally and projecting that. I’ve actually been trying to stay away from these conversations because I’m not sure if I can be anything but angry at this point.
As someone who has always been a good person and yet has never managed to secure a decent relationship, I can say that that view is massively too simplistic. I’m pretty sure I’m not going to be around next month, but other people have massively different reactions to that sort of loneliness. It breaks you down and makes you question every aspect of your personality. At first you try to improve yourself. You study yourself, and you talk with other to try and identify what it is that makes you unlikable. Then you work on those issues. But eventually people stop being able to tell you what is is you’re missing, and thats when you realise it’s not something you’re missing. It’s not that you lack something, it’s that you have something. Something makes you fundamentally different from other people, and you start to accept that you will never have the things that other have.
From here i see two possible solutions: change the world to allow me by force, or give up. Im not the type to force myself on anyone who doesnt want me there, so I’ve pretty much accepted the latter. But for people that have more attatchment to this world, it’s difficult to tell them to have empathy for a world that explicitly hates them.
Edit: also its worth noting that I have never had any compulsion to listen to any of those rapists, but I can feel the draw when it feels like there is some fundamental aspect of being a man that everyone else seems to get but I don’t. These guys offer easy answers which do in fact tend to result in you getting partners: force. And from a lot of the complaints I hear about men online, it almost seems like I am the only person not forcing myself on people. Which, consistency wise, checks out.
Again, obviously I am not considering becoming one of them but our society currently definitely seems to be designed to create more of them.
I know this seems like an unserious response, but it is, and it’s one of the main points of the Barbie movie: you need to learn, perhaps accept, to be enough for yourself.
Ken was looking for validation from Barbie, but when she didn’t, he became angry and all. But the message at the end is right: people should not look to other people for validation. Why? Because you are enough. You don’t need someone else to tell you that. You can tell yourself that. All people are flawed in some way, so what’s it matter what someone else thinks? They’re no better than your to judge you.
And the truth is, the other way is off-putting. I don’t want to be with a person who isn’t enough for themself. If they’re not enough for themself, how can they be good enough for me? I don’t want someone who wants or needs me to be responsible for their emotional management. I want a whole person who is secure in themselves.
One of the problems in society, I think, is the idea that people need to pair up. Women, as a whole, have learned much more quickly than men that romantic relationships may be nice, but they are not essential. We (and maybe our cats) are enough for ourselves. I don’t know how to get men on that same page, too.
I really appreciate that perspective. I’ve heard similar concepts, but I’ve never really heard it quite that eloquently or explored. I think my main issue is just that I don’t see a point. It’s not that I am particularly unhappy with myself beyond this “something” that I’ve convinced myself I must have. In fact I’m reasonably proud of who I’ve become, and reasonably shameful at what continued failings I do have. I’m fully capable of doing everything a normal person would do, I just get little to no fulfilment from doing most of my hobbies without a partner. I’m fine with living by myself but if it were that way forever, i’d prefer to just die now. A life devoid of anyone to share it with just seems like an empty life.
I think this might be the crux of the issue though, is that I don’t know how to get rid of this sense that I’ve before been told is desperation. Like, am I supposed to just not want a relationship? Is that what it takes to get my goal, to give up on it? That’s pretty much where I’m at… but it’s more unfulfilling than ever. I try to just be myself, it’s not like im harassing people. In fact, I have a suspicion that I’m coming off disinterested in women in person because im scared of coming off as overly interested. I don’t know what level of interest is expected of me and there’s no manual. I try to put myself in others shoes and see what I’d want, and I’d desperately love it if someone my age were to approach me in pretty much any manner, but I understand that there’s a gender and cultural dynamic at play here thats seemingly impossible to fully grasp as a male. I also can’t even imagine what social cues could indicate the difference between polite interest and genuine interest. When people compliment me, i generally compliment them back. Should I pursue further personal interaction? I’m having difficulty focusing right now but ill probably return to this later
You know what did it for me? Actually being in a relationship, once upon a time. It was short, it was bad, the rose-coloured glasses came off. Socierty and media portray being in a relationship as a happy conclusion, but more more often than not, it isn’t. How many people have dated more than one boy/girlfriend before they married, and then how many of those marriages end in divorce? How many not-divorced marriages are miserable and unhappy? A lot. Being single is way, way better than being with the wrong person, and there are a lot of wrong people out there.
Now, wrong person doesn’t mean bad person, it can just mean incompatible because you want different things, have different values, etc. (Of course, there are actually bad people, too.)
I prefer to live my life embracing the freedoms of singleness. I can come and go whenever I want without having to account to anyone. I only have to consider me when making job and career choices. Finances and obligations are freer. I took a year off work and went away to work on my own self-development; I couldn’t have done that if I had a partner, and certainly not if I had kids. Maybe you would prefer to exchange the freedoms for a partner, and I acknowledge that. But I am saying appreciate and make the best of the situation you’re in now instead of spending the energy wishing for it to be different.
I’m also absolutely not against relationships or marriage in any way. I’m just being realistic about the fact it’s not all rainbows and roses, and there are rainbows and roses to singleness, to.
Unfortunately, “the man-o-sphere” also lumps in those men who just want to be left alone to their own devices, who - for whatever reason - have gone their own way and don’t want to participate in what they see as a negative-sum game that is tilted - almost hilariously so - against men. Many to most of them aren’t misogynistic in the least, they just don’t want anything to do with women. As is their right.
Because just as a man don’t deserve a woman purely because he’s a man, the same also works in reverse: a woman don’t deserve a man just because they are a woman. There are many women who demand that men leave them alone, but then get all offended AF if a man turns down her attentions. That it is somehow misogynistic for any man to refuse the needs and attentions of a woman.
Sorry, but “equality” doesn’t work like that - it only works equally in both directions.
for whatever reason - have gone their own way and don’t want to participate in what they see as a negative-sum game that is tilted - almost hilariously so - against men.
Lol, my dude. The only way you could possibly think this is if you already subscribe to the alternative facts explained to you by the “man-o-sphere”.
The vast majority of power is still being held by men. Most law makers are men, most of the wealth is held by men, most of the police, the judges, the prosecutors…all mostly men.
There are many women who demand that men leave them alone, but then get all offended AF if a man turns down her attentions.
It’s almost like being attracted to someone is contextual…
That it is somehow misogynistic for any man to refuse the needs and attentions of a woman.
Who is claiming this?
