I saw that a post was made in [email protected] about defederation about a month ago, an admin commented to make a post here to discuss defederation, but the post was never made.
https://maga.place/ is very obviously a small community with no real substance to it, but I saw an antivax post to [email protected] and was surprised it still exists.
Anyways I don’t really have a lot to say but uh, I recently hit a full year on this great instance 😊 (old account @[email protected])
No.
I’m fine with staying federated, until it either breaks the law, threatens the instance, or maga.place users start brigading or whatever.
Whatever is decided, I blocked the instance for myself.
I’m reminded of a story about a bartender, who immediately kicked out a Nazi simply for entering the establishment. The Nazi wasn’t causing any trouble. But the rational was that once you start allowing Nazis in “because they’re nice”, they’ll start inviting their friends, who might not be so nice. Now your bar is a Nazi bar, and they become much harder to kick out because “you already let us in, why do you have a problem now?”
Nazis (and fascists in general) use the same tricks as narcissistic people, by holding you to your words because you believe in words. They don’t, so they happily trample all over you once you let your guard down.
Nazism, by definition, is hateful and violent ideology. Maga is following in their footsteps. They have no place in this world.
That’s the one!
😁
That’s a really poor analogy here though. Here’s one that I think is better:
- instance = country
- community = bar
- federation = visa agreements
Communities can block individual users that are undesirable without the instance getting involved. That’s the Nazi bar example, and it’s totally reasonable for communities to have strict moderation for who they let in.
Instances should only get involved if admins from another instance refuse to take action against their users who cause issues. And an instance can block another with minimal drama, it’s like border security not accepting visas from that country any more. Until we have evidence that an instance isn’t capable of enforcing rules on its users, there’s no reason to ban them.
Well that’s why we’re voting, isn’t it? This isn’t the admins making a decision to defederate, it’s the users.
And jesus fucking christ the amount of FUD going on over this is more enough to show that it should be defederated.
Yes, and that’s why I’m making my case for not defederating. I don’t like their content, and honestly wouldn’t be sad to see them go, but I’m against defederation decisions being made based on political views, and that seems to be what’s happening here.
FUD going on over this is more enough to show that it should be defederated.
Weird, I came to the opposite conclusion. Here’s the process I followed:
- Saw the post in main asking if we should defederate, and I pointed them here
- Saw voting thread pinned and saw only yes votes
- Looked at the post body and the linked posts and saw zero evidence posted
- Looked at the actual instance and saw a bunch of conservative talking points and very little discussion or votes; total users were 26 or so, and they pretty much only had a conservative community
The negative impact to users seemed exceedingly small, since they didn’t even have engagement on their own posts, and I haven’t seen anyone discussing issues with the few users they have.
So why defederate? This seems like a bunch of people virtue signaling over pretty much nothing, mostly based on the domain (WTF?), and somewhat based on conservative views.
I think we should stay federated on principle to remind people that civility has value. We don’t want to be like Lemmy.ml that bans people over content critical to the CCP or Russia, and how is defederating from this instance any different?
Maybe we need to defederate later if their instance causes issues, but then we’d be absolutely justified.
What their homepage looks like…
Defed that nonsense please
A screenshot made for ants? Am I doing something wrong if I only see blurred text and large pixels when I zoom in in voyager?
That’s weird. I swear it was legible when I made that comment
This just happens sometimes. I don’t know if it’s a client thing or a server thing. Opening and closing the image repeatedly will often coax it into loading properly.
Agreed
They should be defederated.
Their hateful ideas should have no place here.
Defederate, we saw what the_donald become. If anything, to avoid the bots and agitators.
Why should users of this instance spend their leisure time with people who not only want to take away their rights, but label themselves as such? A label that tags their user name regardless of what they’re saying.
Why should we, as users of this instance, ever allow someone who visibly declares their support for hateful politics, to engage with the most vulnerable among us in the first place?
MAGA policies are killing women. I’m a woman. I see someone calling themselves MAGA and I see someone who supports stripping away my autonomy and letting me die.
Everyone can join as many instances as they want if they believe defederating from hate speech enthusiasts is creating an echo chamber.
Completely agreed. Also history would dictate that giving literal nazis a space/platform with which they can influence people is a bad fuckin idea. We don’t owe them tolerance and they should be censored because they are a cult and don’t intend on good faith discussion.
Call me radical, I’ll say hang loose 🤙
The post on Science Memes got downvoted into oblivion, which is funny.
But yeah, we should probably defed these pos.
Defederate. Let the right-wingers have their echo-chambers in isolation
And keep your own echo-chamber? I’m very disappointed in this community… I haven’t come across any posts from that community but their front page looks no worse than [email protected] just with a different slant. They don’t even have any comments so the community must be tiny.
Lemmy.ml is still 10 times better (Even with all it’s flaws) than the misanthropic filth that is MAGA. The term you’re looking for is Discourse Hygiene
I haven’t seen any evidence of their users consistently violating rules of other instances, I’ve only seen intolerant communities on their instance. That should not be grounds for defederation, we should only defederate if their instance refuses to deal with reported abuse from their users.
So I’ll vote no on this. While I very much disagree politically w/ that instance, I don’t think that’s enough to defederate.
The only interactions I’ve had with them was a user trolling.
If you have evidence, post it. If we have any mods who have experience working w/ their admins, we should have that evidence as well.
meh, I’m not going to convince you. Just vote no. Besides:
Bait?
If we make decisions based on a difference of opinion, we’ll just create a massive echo chamber. To avoid that, defederation needs to be based on actual rules, and I think those rules should center around moderation. Regardless of the other instance’s views, if their moderation keeps up with reports, we should stay federated. I don’t know if that’s the case, hence the ask for evidence.
Nazis shouldn’t be given a seat at the table. That’s my take.
When your “opinions” consist of racism and hate, they cease to be opinion.
As long as they keep their opinions in whatever community they choose and don’t force it down anyone’s throat, I’m fine with it existing. I’d rather have ugly opinions openly debated instead of festering in the background where others get sucked in and we get a pathway to extremism. It’s pretty easy to just block the odd community that pops up all you never see it again.
Debate them or ignore them, but completely blocking them just kneecaps this burgeoning platform. Nobody is going to join if the standard is “only leftists that meet this litmus test”.
Obviously you can vote however you choose, I personally prefer to lean on the side of allowing content vs blocking it outright, at least until they refuse to obey our rules when in our communities.
You’re making a valid point, on the other hand
Nobody is going to join if the standard is “only leftists that meet this litmus test”.
What if the standard was not “only leftists” but “everyone but the far-right”? They are allowed on most (?) major platforms these days, and it hasn’t helped them become better places.
As a general rule, I am against defederation unless the instance is going to cause liability or technical problems (bot spamming, illegal content, etc.)
This instance in particular is closer to banning a user that is self hosting. It is closed, requires account approval, and thusly defederation will not catch any unknowing users in a dragnet.
So I think defederation is a reasonable exception for this instance, especially given the community vote in progress.
Defederate!
Being “MAGA” is not associated with conservatism, it’s claiming your support for a openly fascist president at war with his a part of his own people. MAGA is not a political view, it’s an aggregate of hate against pretty much all minorities: immigrants, LGBTQ, muslims,…
Here I’m going to point:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandolini’s_law It takes much more energy to prove an “alternative fact” as wrong than to dump it in a post.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance If you tolerate the intolerant, you enable intolerance.
Don’t we have minorities on this instance? Are we really advocating for a constructive dialogue between groups of people who just want to exist and people who wish these other groups could be exterminated?
I would like the option to vote to defer to the moderators. Reason being while I think it is valid to keep their community exposed to outside, less supportive, takes on their ideology, I also understand that the community has potential to be a particularly toxic and hostile one, so I understand if our moderators (who I am very appreciative of) don’t want to take on the task of keeping them in check on this community.
Also, those of you upvoting and downvoting votes are wild.
I beleive we need to debate that filth and fight them everywhere. However, if I want to do that, I can always create a user somewhere else that allows me to do so and not pollute this instance. I want this instance to be a nice place that I can show to people as a good alternative to reddit and other social media platforms wihout puting them at risk of being brainwashed by fascists. In short, I support to defederate.
But my issue is how does one debate someone who doesn’t care about truth or debate regulation or debating in good faith at all? All they do is bowl over people and that just makes them more confidently wrong.
I know you’re not arguing that we should remain federated with them, im just curious why you enjoy debating them because I get so frustrated and I’d much rather not raise my blood pressure unnecessarily so I just don’t get it lol. It feels like a losing game.
We have an openly fascist president who reads Mein Kampf and administration members who combined have made Nazis comfortable literally doing Nazi salutes on international broadcast TV. IMO the U.S. IS the Nazi bar in the story - we let one Nazi in and now they’ve brought all their friends. Let’s not repeat that mistake on Lemmy.
Give them the boot.
Let MAGAs read and engage with reasonable content as long as possible so long as they aren’t dickheads. You never know when someone will say something that makes them rethink their position.
Yup, my mind was changed around the time I found Reddit and was exposed to new ideas. Before that point, I considered myself conservative because I thought they actually wanted smaller government, but then I found I’m closer to libertarian, specifically Penn Jillette’s flavor, and found communities on Reddit to that extent. Since then, I’ve probably voted more Democrat than Republican in my red state, at least for contested offices.
We need more discussion across political lines, not less.
If they are coming in good faith, willing to discuss and empathise, engagement is good and everyone can learn from each other. If it’s in bad faith, then block or mock.
Yup, I 100% agree. It just takes time to figure out which it is.
You know, for a lot of us, the title MAGA is just as good as Fascist.
They could have called themselves “conservatives”, “right-wingers” etc. But they chose “MAGA”, the fascist’s branch of the GOP.
I don’t need to engage with them to figure anything more than I would engage a nazi.place or fascist.place.
I can go ahead and shut you all down now, there’s plenty of evidence suggesting that this instance is a Russian propaganda outlet.
Others have explained in more detail above. Nothing that comes from this instance is in good faith.
I can go ahead and shut you all down now, there’s plenty of evidence suggesting that this instance is a Russian propaganda outlet.
Others have explained in more detail above. Nothing that comes from this instance is in good faith.
Are you about this comment where they’re claiming the admin self identifies as Russian?
I don’t think that’s sufficient. Not all Russians work for or even agree with the Russian government, and a lot of Russians live outside of Russia. I grew up in the PNW and there were a lot of Russians in my school. That IP address seems to be in the US, so there’s a decent chance the admin lives in the US.
If them claiming to be Russian is enough to label them a Russian propagandist, I guess the Japanese internment program was justifiable too.
